WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Dummy Tank used in Hobart, Tasmania.

LF

AWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Dummy Tanks used in a War Loan promotion, Melbourne, Australia.

LF

AWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Dummy Tank used in a War Loan parade, Perth, Western Australia.

LF

AWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

For my final posts on the ' Dummy Tank ', we have an excellent example of the use of dummy or mock up versions of an intended new tank, in this case, the 1917 Gun Carrier Mark II.

The Gun Carrier Mark I, was designed by Major J. R. Gregg, a military engineer with the Metropolitan, Carriage, Wagon and Finance Company of Saltley, Birmingham. ( as a reminder of the December 2014 posts on the Gun Carrier Mark I, here is the page 120 link. )

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=173218&page=120

Following the success of the Gun Carrier Mark I, a revised version, the Mark II was planned, and again, the design work for the Gun Carrier Mark II was carried out by Major Gregg at the Metropolitan Works at Saltley, Birmingham in 1917.

The Gun Carrier Mark I had the lower body of a Tank, with 2 tall armoured cabs at the front which housed the Gun Carrier's Driver and Brakeman. In between those tall armoured cabs was the space into which the artillery piece, which was to be carried, was stowed. Behind the gun stowage area, was a space for storing artillery shells, and behind that, the large square armoured compartment for the Gun Carrier's crew. ( see attached photographs )

The revised design for the Gun Carrier Mark II, dispensed with the just using the lower body of a Tank, eliminated both the 2 tall armoured cabs at the front, and also the armoured crew compartment, both of which were now incorporated into the main body of the Gun Carrier Mark II which took the form of the Mark V Tank.

With the Gun Carrier Mark I, the artillery piece to be carried, which was typically either a 60 Pounder or a 6 inch Howitzer, would have its wheels removed, which were then stored on the side of the Gun Carrier, and the Gun's main body minus its wheels, would be winched up a metal ramp into position and stowed on the front of the Gun Carrier.

On reaching its destination, the Gun would be winched off the Gun Carrier, the Gun's wheels would be removed from the side of the Gun Carrier and re-attached to the Gun, all of which was time consuming.

In order to substantially reduce the time for loading and unloading the artillery piece from the Gun Carrier, on the Gun Carrier Mark II, the artillery piece to be transported would be winched up an extended ramp into position atop the Gun Carrier complete with its wheels still attached, and securely stowed in position. On reaching its destination, the loading ramps would be lowered and the stowed artillery piece would be quickly rolled down the loading ramp again with the aid of the Gun Carrier's winch.

Attached are 2 excellent photographs from the Imperial War Museum's photo archive, which show the wooden ' Dummy ' or mock up version of the Gun Carrier Mark II at the Metropolitan, Carriage, Wagon and Finance Company works in Saltley, Birmingham.

The photographs show the wheeled artillery piece being loaded onto the Gun Carrier Mark II, and stowed in position atop the Gun Carrier.

Despite reaching this mock up stage in its development, the Gun Carrier Mark II never proceeded beyond ' Mock Up ' stage, it is not known what happened to this superb and unique wooden mock up of the Gun Carrier Mark II.

The first photographs show a reminder of the gun stowage position on the Gun Carrier Mark I.

LF

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

2

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The wooden ' Dummy ' mock up of the Gun Carrier Mark II photographed in 1917 at the Metropolitan Carriage, Wagon and Finance Company works in Saltley, Birmingham.

We see the dummy wheeled artillery piece being winched up the Gun Carrier's loading ramp to be positioned in the gun storage area atop the Gun Carrier.

The revised Gun Carrier Mark II took the form of a Mark V Tank, with all the crew being housed inside the body of the Gun Carrier.

LF

Imperial War Museum Photo Archive. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The wooden ' Dummy ' mock up of the Gun Carrier Mark II photographed in 1917 at the Metropolitan Carriage, Wagon and Finance Company works in Saltley, Birmingham.

We see the dummy wheeled artillery piece, which having been winched aboard the rear of the Gun Carrier mark II via the Gun Carrier's rear loading ramps, is stowed in the gun storage area atop the Gun Carrier.

LF

Imperial War Museum Photo Archive. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[GRANVILLE]

Fascinating.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Fascinating.

David,

I agree, so many excellent British inventions and ideas were developed in the latter part of WW1, and for whatever reason, were not put into production before the Armistice and after which, they were abandoned.

Also of interest, in posts 3254/55 is the tracked rail system at Metropolitan used to move and align that gangway, on which the mock up Gun Carrier Mark II is standing, with the various work shed doors, those photos show up to 15 sheds and I am sure there were more not seen in the photos.

Metropolitan were major manufacturers of Tanks during WW1, and before, during and after WW1, they were also major manufacturers of railway carriages, and that tracked rail system and gangway were used to get the railway carriages out of the work sheds once they were constructed.

Attached are two WW1 period trade advertisements for the Metropolitan Carriage, Wagon and Finance Company of Saltley, Birmingham showing their railway carriages, including a luxurious railway carriage made for the President of Argentina.

Regards.

LF

2

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

To briefly revisit the topic of ' Dog Carts ', back on 16th January, post # 3056 I posted an extremely rare photograph ( copy attached ) of a British Army unit from the Welch Regiment ( E. Coy ) using a Machine Gun Gog Cart.

As the use of dog carts was illegal throughout Britain, the Welch Regiment photograph had to have been taken overseas, and the photo's caption suggested that it may have been taken on Gallipoli ?

I have since discovered another extremely rare photograph of that same Welch Regiment ( E. Coy ) Machine Gun Unit ' in action '. Several members of the Welch Regiment shown in the first photograph appear again in the second photograph, plus the addition of one of the Regiment's horses, so it was probably taken on the same day at the same location.

The caption on the second photograph indicates the Welch Regiment Machine Gunners were in action in the ' Marne ' region of Northern France, which makes more sense than their being on Galliopli with a Machine Gun Dog Cart, which has a much more logical Northern France/ Flanders connection.

Here are both photographs, and hopefully a member with knowledge of the Welch Regiment ( E. Company ), may confirm their having been in the Marne region of Northern France, rather than on Gallipoli ?

LF

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

2

[Lancashire Fusilier]

At an Army Service Corps Motor Transport Depot in the village of Houdain, American made Peerless Lorries used to mount Anti-Aircraft Guns, are seen being repaired. In the middle of the photograph, we see a row of ASC Mobile Workshops, which although intended to be mobile, have taken on a more permanent role at this ASC MT Depot.

The village of Houdain, is located in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region of Northern France.

LF

IWM10433 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An extremely interesting photograph showing a unit of Royal Engineer Signallers rolling field telephone cables, this is the only photograph I have seen of this equipment actually in use.

They are using the rear-wheel drive from their General Service Lorry to power the telephone cable winch, having first used to jack ( seen in position under the rear of the vehicle ) to raise the GS lorry's rear wheels off the ground. The GS lorry's specially adapted rear wheel is attached to a belt which is connected to a large cable drum anchored to a timber post.

The power provided by the GS Lorry's rear-wheel drive allows field telephone cable to be rapidly wound onto several field telephone cable hand carts used in laying field telephone cables at the front.

In the background of this photograph, taken somewhere in France during 1916, is a converted B-Type London Bus used as an Army transport vehicle.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A unit of Royal Engineer Signallers using field telephones at the front, with their field telephones connected to telephone cables such as those seen being wound in the previous post.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[GRANVILLE]

Fascinating photos for sure. Personally I can't quite figure out just how the set-up works as I can't see how the speedy rotation of the large wheeled drum acts on the hand held drums of cable several yards away, if fact to me it almost looks as if the men with the smaller drums are winding the wire onto the drums by hand. Fascinating all the same.

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Fascinating photos for sure. Personally I can't quite figure out just how the set-up works as I can't see how the speedy rotation of the large wheeled drum acts on the hand held drums of cable several yards away, if fact to me it almost looks as if the men with the smaller drums are winding the wire onto the drums by hand. Fascinating all the same.

David

David,

What is also fascinating, is that this field telephone cable winding system was in operation with the British Army 100 years ago !

It seems that the large cable drum fed telephone cable to several smaller drums, which in turn fed cable to the hand carts, it may also be significant that both the field telephone cable hand carts are similar distances from the main cable drum, with their positions marked by wooden posts in the ground ?

As you say, fascinating all the same.

Regards,

LF

[Scalyback]

I could tell you but OSA and all that(taps nose)

Cable is normally delivered in the form of the larger drum. Ease of shipment, large length supplied in length etc. For an actual working detachment you need smaller drums to play with. It's a transfer down but what I remember the drums loaded with cable even a small one weighed a lot! Guess WW 1 wire was not as light as the wire I used due to plastic coating, otherwise the design has not changed. Field telephony the same. More plastic but the same design.

Welsh regiment 1st Battalion landed LE Harve early 1915 before moving September 1915 to the east.

If you want other dates or battalions do shout.

Top work as all ways.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Two photographs, showing a member of a 13 Pounder Anti-Aircraft Gun unit taking a nap in the shade under the rear of the unit's Thornycroft lorry.

These photographs are full of detail, including excellent details of the Thornycroft AA lorry's rear ammunition locker which contained 24 x 13 Pounder shells, and as this AA unit was in action, the crew have already partially removed these shells from their storage canisters, which both saved a few valuable seconds during their removal for loading, and also provided a much better grip on the shell during their removal from the ammunition locker, all being critically important to the swift shell loading process needed when the AA Gun was being fired.

Also shown are items of uniform and equipment, including the tall wooden tripod used to mount optical sighting and range finding equipment.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

2

Also note, as shown in both photographs, the Thornycroft J-Type Lorry's rear stabilizer jacks mounted on blocks and used to stabilize the mounted 13 Pounder's Gun and firing platform during firing.

Also shown, is also a nice example of a crew member's Brodie helmet with its hessian helmet cover.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The 4.7 inch Quick Firing Gun

The 4.7 inch Gun was originally designed and manufactured at Armstrong Whitworth's Elswick Ordnance Company factory near Newcastle-Upon-Tyne in 1885, for use by the British Royal Navy.

During the Second Boer War ( October 1899 - May 1902 ), the British Army in South Africa had the need for long range artillery to counter the Boers use of their four French Schneider ' Creusot ' 155 mm Field Guns, which the Boers were to use effectively against the British garrisons at Mafeking, Kimberley and Ladysmith, with the Ladysmith garrison being the most vulnerable.

With two British cruisers, HMS Terrible and HMS Powerful anchored off Capetown, the British Commander in Natal, General Sir George White, V.C., requested the Navy's assistance in providing long range guns, and in response, Captain Percy Scott, R.N., of HMS Terrible, a naval gunnery expert, devised a plan to utilize 2 x 4.7 inch guns which were being used as part of Capetown's coastal defence system along with 12 x 12 pounder guns removed from both HMS Terrible and HMS Powerful, for which Captain Percy Scott designed a gun carriage, which later bore his name, enabling these long range guns to be used as Field Artillery and also transported overland.

Equipped with the 2 x 4.7 inch guns and the 12 x 12 pounder guns all mounted on their ' Percy Scott ' gun carriages, Captain, the Hon. H. Lambton, R.N., and his Naval Brigade of 280 men from HMS Powerful set out to take their guns, hauled by teams of 32 oxen, overland to assist in the relief of Ladysmith.

The use of teams of oxen to haul the 4.7 inch guns, which alone weighed over 2 tons, gave rise to the term ' Cow Guns ' for these heavy long range field guns.

Following the success of the 4.7 inch guns in the Relief of Ladysmith, other 4.7 inch guns were brought into service during the Second Boer War, which were mounted on ' Percy Scott ' gun carriages, and it was these 4.7 inch guns which later saw service on the Western Front, also on Gallipoli and in the Balkans during WW1.

Ninety-two Quick Firing 4.7 inch Field Guns were used by the Royal Garrison Artillery during the early years of WW1, with their primary role being to counter enemy artillery fire by hurling their 46 lb 7 oz high explosive shells over a maximum range of 10,000 yards.

By 1916, the well-worn 4.7 inch Field Guns were replaced by the new 60 Pounders, with the 4.7s being withdrawn from the Western Front.

The first photograph, shows a 4.7 inch gun on its naval style mounting

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A British 4.7 inch gun mounted on its ' Percy Scott ' gun carriage, seen in action during the Second Boer War in South Africa.

This photo shows good details of the heavy wooden gun carriage designed by Captain Percy Scott. R.N., which appears to have been so well constructed and durable, that it was still in service on some 4.7 inch Field Guns used during WW1, particularly those used on Gallipoli and in Salonika.

Note the use of guide ropes to assist in dealing with the 4.7's recoil.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

During the Second Boer War, a signaling section of a Royal Artillery detachment is seen sending information by Heliograph, also note the 4.7 inch Field Gun in the background.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[phil@basildon]

The 4.7 inch Quick Firing Gun

The 4.7 inch Gun was originally designed and manufactured at Armstrong Whitworth's Elswick Ordnance Company factory near Newcastle-Upon-Tyne in 1885, for use by the British Royal Navy.

During the Second Boer War ( October 1899 - May 1902 ), the British Army in South Africa had the need for long range artillery to counter the Boers use of their four French Schneider ' Creusot ' 155 mm Field Guns, which the Boers were to use effectively against the British garrisons at Mafeking, Kimberley and Ladysmith, with the Ladysmith garrison being the most vulnerable.

With two British cruisers, HMS Terrible and HMS Powerful anchored off Capetown, the British Commander in Natal, General Sir George White, V.C., requested the Navy's assistance in providing long range guns, and in response, Captain Percy Scott, R.N., of HMS Terrible, a naval gunnery expert, devised a plan to utilize 2 x 4.7 inch guns which were being used as part of Capetown's coastal defence system along with 12 x 12 pounder guns removed from both HMS Terrible and HMS Powerful, for which Captain Percy Scott designed a gun carriage, which later bore his name, enabling these long range guns to be used as Field Artillery and also transported overland.

Equipped with the 2 x 4.7 inch guns and the 12 x 12 pounder guns all mounted on their ' Percy Scott ' gun carriages, Captain, the Hon. H. Lambton, R.N., and his Naval Brigade of 280 men from HMS Powerful set out to take their guns, hauled by teams of 32 oxen, overland to assist in the relief of Ladysmith.

The use of teams of oxen to haul the 4.7 inch guns, which alone weighed over 2 tons, gave rise to the term ' Cow Guns ' for these heavy long range field guns.

Following the success of the 4.7 inch guns in the Relief of Ladysmith, other 4.7 inch guns were brought into service during the Second Boer War, which were mounted on ' Percy Scott ' gun carriages, and it was these 4.7 inch guns which later saw service on the Western Front, also on Gallipoli and in the Balkans during WW1.

Ninety-two Quick Firing 4.7 inch Field Guns were used by the Royal Garrison Artillery during the early years of WW1, with their primary role being to counter enemy artillery fire by hurling their 46 lb 7 oz high explosive shells over a maximum range of 10,000 yards.

By 1916, the well-worn 4.7 inch Field Guns were replaced by the new 60 Pounders, with the 4.7s being withdrawn from the Western Front.

The first photograph, shows a 4.7 inch gun on its naval style mounting

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

I notice that the two sailors must be American. British sailors must be either clean shaven or have a full beard, no mustaches.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I notice that the two sailors must be American. British sailors must be either clean shaven or have a full beard, no mustaches.

Phil,

The sailors are not American, but rather are Australian. The sailor's cap tally reads ' HMVS Cerberus ' (Her Majesty's Victorian Ship) which was a ' Monitor ' launched in 1871.

This photograph probably taken just before WW1, shows a British ' Elswick Ordnance ' 4.7 inch Naval Gun taken ashore from a decommissioned former British Royal Navy ship.

Interesting Royal Navy facial hair rules, do you know when they came into force ? and they seem not to have applied to the Australian Navy.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The British 4.7 inch gun known as ' Joe Chamberlain ' mounted on its ' Percy Scott ' gun carriage, firing during the barrage of Magersfontein, South Africa. The barrage was one of the biggest since Sevastopol but only served to warn the Boers of the imminence of British attack.

Many of these same 4.7 inch guns, complete with their original timber gun carriages were later used both on Galliopli and in Salonika during WW1.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The British 4.7 inch ' Joe Chamberlain ' Gun, named after the British Politician and Liberal MP., Joseph Chamberlain ( 1836-1914 ).

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

One of the British 4.7 inch former Naval Guns mounted on its timber ' Percy Scott ' gun carriage and used in the Relief of Ladysmith, is paraded through Ladysmith.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.