177367 gnr e w moyse ra 3-9-1884 1975

[blackrodd]

hello, i am attempting to find any military records of my grandfather. 177367 gunner e w moyse ra. i have two of his medals with these details on. born 3-9 -1884 southwark to harry moyse father, margaret (hall) mother. both from fordham cambridge. grandad married 8-1-1910 mary ann sutton at battersea i can't find him in either the 1901 or 1911 cencus. i'm told he was in the reserve and was called up early in the conflict. my grandfather's younger brother 915949bombadier a j moyse died 12-9-1917 age 22. (3rd battle of ypres)? buried new military cemetry, vlamertinghe plot d bty, 291st bde royal field artillery. i'm unable to find if they were possibly, both in the same regiment. any advice would be most welcome also i would like to find out if he was entitled to the 1914 and 1914/1915 bronze stars which i don't have. many thanks rodders

[Verrico2009]

Hi Rodders - and welcome to the Forum.

If you don't have Ancestry membership (it's sometimes possible to obtain free access at large local libraries or at Kew Archives), you can purchase a copy of Ernest's Medals Index Card to download from The National Archives at Kew: follow this link MIC.

I note that you say you understand he was in the reserve, but this particular card does not show entitlement to a Star, indicating that he didn't go abroad until after 31 December 1915 - which is not to say that he didn't have Home service prior to that. Once you have the MIC if you post the medal roll references on here in the look up section, you may find that someone here already has a copy or that someone may be able to make you a copy on a future visit, if you can't go to TNA yourself (the rolls aren't digitised yet). RFA indicates he was also Royal Field Artillery. Hopefully the rolls will give you details of his brigade to see if they match his brother's.

[Verrico2009]

As far as the census goes, having ascertained that his middle name was William, what about this entry for 1911 (spouse Mary Ann, who also gives her place of birth as Battersea and her profession as shirt ironer)?

Name: William Moyse

Age in 1911: 27

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884

Relation to Head: Head

Gender: Male

Birth Place: London, United Kingdom

Civil parish: Battersea

County/Island: London

Country: England

Street Address: 6 St Peters Place, Usk Rd, Battersea S W

Marital Status: Married

Occupation: Fishmongers Shop Assistant

Registration district: Wandsworth

Registration District Number: 26

Sub-registration district:South West Battersea

[Edit: Q "completed years the marriage has lasted". A "under one". He is, of course, 27 and she's 25]

[Edit 2: examination of the original page shows that his birthplace is indeed given as "Bermonsey", which is the parish and the borough is Southwark - while hers is Battersea. So hopefully that's your man]

[Verrico2009]

I've found the same man again in 1901 and the parents match, so I think he may have been known as William:-

Name: William Moyse

Age: 19

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882

Relation: Son

Father's Name: Harry Moyse

Mother's Name: Margaret Moyse

Gender: Male

Where born: Bermondsey, London, England

Civil parish: Carshalton

Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints

Town: Carshalton

County/Island: Surrey

Country: England

Siblings are:-

Elizabeth, Harry, Frederick, Alfred (I see that "A J" is an Alfred) and Hilda. Father Harry is from "Cambs, Fordham" and mother Margaret is from "Suffolk, Barnham". Elizabeth was born "Surrey, Walworth" (and I know that's definitely inside Southwark, as it's where my family settled!).

And for comparison, here's the 1891 census where he's referred to as Ernest:-

Name: Ernest W Moyse

Age: 7

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884

Relation: Son

Father's Name: Harry Moyse

Mother's Name: Margaret Moyse

Gender: Male

Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Carshalton

Ecclesiastical parish: Carshalton All Saints

Town: Carshalton

County/Island: Surrey

Country: England

Siblings then were: Gertrude, Mabel, Elizabeth and Harry. Elizabeth and both parents' details exactly match the 1901 paper. Looks good to me!

[blackrodd]

dear verrico2009, many thanks for all this information . i'm very gratful for you're excellent work. i'll get the mic as soon as i can and will do as you suggest. it would be nice to find which regiment he served in and then possibly guestimate his likely movements in france and belgium i would like to visit alfred's grave in vlamertinghe. with best regards rodders

[David Porter]

From the Soldiers Died in the Great War database:

Name: Alfred James Moyse

Birth Place: Carshalton, Surrey

Death Date: 12 Sep 1917

Death Location: France & Flanders

Enlistment Location: St.John's Wood, Middx.

Rank: L/BDR.

Regiment: Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery

Battalion: Territorial Force

Number: 915949

Type of Casualty: Killed in action

Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

Alfred's 6 figure number (allocated in early 1917) puts him in 4th Home Counties Brigade RFA.

However, by the time of his death he was with 291st Bde RFA which was 2/2nd London Brigade RFA and suggests a posting.

Ernest William Moyse with a number of 177367 places him as being called up in late 1916, possibly at Woolwich Depot.

He would have been in reserve from his initial attestation earlier that year under the 1916 Military Services Act, or possibly even before that (late 1915) under the Derby Scheme. Where he ended up after his training will be very difficult to find if his service record did not survive the WWII bombing. It is very unlikely he served in the same units as his younger brother but not impossible.

Ernest would not have been entitled to either of the Star medals.

[David Porter]

A little more information for you:

Your grandfather, Ernest, was baptised on May 4, 1884 at Christ Church, Bermondsey. (London, Births and Baptisms, on Ancestry)

This would suggest his birthdate was probably a year earlier than you have indicated. His father was a Miller of 5 East Lane.

[Verrico2009]

According to his death certificate details on Ancestry, David - birth was 9 March 1884 (Link): think Rodders has put the month before the day.

Rodders- David's right: following your grandfather's movements is going to be difficult. You will need to nail his brigade and ideally (assuming he had one) his battery to narrow it down enough to identify the relevant war diary. The Royal Artillery regiments (Field, Horse and Garrison) really did live up to their motto of "ubique" (everywhere). I've been trying to trace a distant relative George John Pritchard, also a gunner in the RFA and it hasn't been easy. Also, with a very bare MIC you can't really know when he was discharged - could have been into 1919 or perhaps later (not an expert). Unfortunately mentions by name below officer rank are quite rare in diaries. Sadly I can't find any surviving service papers for either Ernest or Alfred, but pleased to have cleared the census returns issue up for you.

[David Porter]

birth was 9 March 1884 (Link): think Rodders has put the month before the day.

I concur, should have checked death record before posting!

[blackrodd]

dear david and verrico, many thanks for the excellent information once again. please accept my apolagies, you are right of course, about grandads birthday being 9th march 1884 but that was how i came accross it on a google page and one other item on his father, (harry's) record, some time ago so i didn't alter it incaseit may cause more problems on records. for instance i've seen he is recorded as died 1975 and my gran mary ann "(polly)" in 1972, which is the wrong way round asi don't have either person's birth certificate i've left these as is, but i see you've possibly cleared that up as well! best regards rodders

[blackrodd]

hello, as i've hit a dead end on trying to find my grandfathers rfa/rha battailion and battery, i've had a researcher copy out the war diaries for my grandfathers brother. (bdr 915949 alfred james moyse rfa) 291st btn "d" btry. d. 12-sept 1917 buried vlamertinghe. wonder if one of the pals can interpret the entry for that era as you all seem to have the bigger picture in mind for the "jigsaw pieces" to fit.

i have july, august, september and october entries. including casualties numbers, gassed, killed, wounded etc.for sept and october.

dickbusche. 2/9/17. half battalion withdrew from position south of ypres

dickbusche. 3/9 7.30 am. marched to billets west of her zeele- (looks like)(at noon) more ransferred from ii corps and xviii corps

nr herzeele 6/9 8.20 brigade h-qtrs and one section per battery marched to new wagon(?) nr vlamertinghe

B C and 1 section per battery went into action and took over.

vlamertinghe7/9 8.20 remainder of batteries arrived and went into action. formed LEFT GROUP. 58th div artillery under

lt. col. c clifford. brigade took over from 103rd r s a.

vlamertinghe 14/9 12 noon. lt col. n. t. odam commanding 291st btn took over command of left front (?) hqrs at la belle alliance.

la belle

alliance 20/9 5.40 am. supported the attackof 174th brigade on the st julien front. attack completely successful.--- and so it goes on.

can someone give me a quick overview of what was going on in that sector please, what was left group that was formed? what infantry were they supporting?

i went on findagrave vlamertinghe and the photo of his gravestone shows soldiers buried either side same date, same battery, so i assumed a direct hit on their position was possible. when i get out there i may find more than those 3 sharing dates etc.

many thanks for reading this. regards rodders