2nd Canadian Heavy Artillery and 152 RGA -- can anyone help me underst

[bcarleton]

I am trying to trace the formation and movements of 152 Heavy Battery RGA of which my grandfather was a bombadier and driver until his demob in 1919. He first enlisted 1912 in Territorial Force. I don't know when he first went to the Western Front and would like to find out. Service record was destroyed in a fire so no luck there.

My current theory is that there may have been a 'Territorial RGA unit that later became 152 Heavy Battery' and was made a part of the 2nd Canadian Heavy Artillery in the order of battle (at least in 1917 according to the Long Long Trail).

Any clues that could be offered by readers as to whether this theory sounds feasible would be appreciated. Anything that could help me connect the dot between grandfather's enlistment in 1912 and 152 Heavy RGA in ARRAS in 1917 would be extremely helpful.

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

First off I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about artillery, however,

this link takes you to the War Diaries for the Heavy Artillery Corps which, I presume, incorporates the 2nd. Note, I presume !!

http://data4.collectionscanada.gc.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s1=2+Canadian+Heavy+Artillery+&s13=&s12=&l=20&s9=RG9&s7=9-52&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect4=AND&Sect5=WARDPEN&Sect6=HITOFF&d=FIND&p=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.collectionscanada.gc.ca%2Farchivianet%2F02015202_e.html&r=0&f=S

Regards,

Graeme

[nigelfe]

152 Hy Bty was obviously an RGA bty and being designated 'heavy' was equipped with 60-pr. Whether or not it was a pre-war TF bty I've no idea, but if it was it was initially equipped with 4.7 in guns.

On 11/11/18 it was part of 84 (Mixed) Bde RGA in Third Army, being a mixed bde it would have been a counter-battery bde assigned to one of the corps.

152 has no mention in the text of either the RA or Canadian artillery history.

However, for the Vimy Rudge battle in 1917 152 Hy Bty was one of two RGA batteries added to the 2nd Canadian Heavy Artillery Group. This group had a counter-battery role.

[kevinrowlinson]

152nd (Hackney) Heavy Battery, as the name implies, was a locally raised battery from that area formed around October 1915. These men were mainly numbered 296000 to 296250 after the 1917 renumbering. Your relative may have been an ex TF gunner, but without his name and service number it is difficult to say whether he enlisted with that battery on formation, or was posted to it later.

Kevin

[ororkep]

I would speculate 316026 / 867 Barley originally went out to the Western Front in March 1916 with 1/1 Essex Hvy Bty. They were in a support role to the Canadians at Vimy, and at some point around then or just after he transferred to 152 HB which was in the 2 Canadian HAG from late March to late Oct 17.

Rgds

Paul

Edit: March substituded for April, & New Years res made to stay off the mulled wine!

[bcarleton]

Excellent suggestions. There were at least five good leads. Thank you!

I am curious for better understanding of what is meant by 'counter-battery' -- is this to mean the role of the 'counter battery' is defensive or secondary to a main battery?

[bcarleton]

Also -- is it possible that 1/1 Essex Heavy Battery is the same as 1/1 London Heavy Battery?

[rflory]

Two things:

1. The war diary for 152nd Heavy Battery for the period April to May 1916 can be found at the National Archives under WO95/396. The rest of the battery's war diary has not been traced.

2. Counter-battery fire is one of the forms of firing carried out by batteries or brigades - it is essentially firing to destroy enemy batteries. Each British Army Corps has a Counter-Battery Staff Officer who's job was to use intelligence and other information to pinpoint the location of enemy batteries so that they could be fired on by friendly artillery and destroyed. Information on location of enemy batteries was also carried out by forward observation officers (FOOs) of batteries and brigades who would then cause them to be fired on by batteries under their control. Other forms of artillery fire included barrages, SOS, harrassing, interdictory and observed fire.

Dick Flory

[regimentalrogue]

this link takes you to the War Diaries for the Heavy Artillery Corps which, I presume, incorporates the 2nd. Note, I presume !!

http://data4.collect..._e.html&r=0&f=S

Actually, the CEF War Diary database will provide more Heavy Artillery War Diaries with a simpler search on just the word "heavy":

http://data4.collect..._e.html&r=0&f=S

You may also find useful results in this search on "Garrison Artillery":

http://data4.collect..._e.html&r=0&f=S

Here is the War Diary of the 2nd Brigade, Canadian Garrison Artillery. It includes mention of the 152nd Battery.

http://data4.collectionscanada.gc.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s1=Garrison+Artillery&s13=&s12=&l=20&s9=RG9&s7=9-52&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect4=AND&Sect5=WARDPEN&Sect6=HITOFF&d=FIND&p=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.collectionscanada.gc.ca%2Farchivianet%2F02015202_e.html&r=0&f=S

[nigelfe]

2. Counter-battery fire is one of the forms of firing carried out by batteries or brigades - it is essentially firing to destroy enemy batteries. Each British Army Corps has a Counter-Battery Staff Officer who's job was to use intelligence and other information to pinpoint the location of enemy batteries so that they could be fired on by friendly artillery and destroyed. Information on location of enemy batteries was also carried out by forward observation officers (FOOs) of batteries and brigades who would then cause them to be fired on by batteries under their control. Other forms of artillery fire included barrages, SOS, harrassing, interdictory and observed fire.

Not entirely correct, the 1918 RGA organisation created three types of brigade, one had general bombardment and other tasks, one (the largest with 6 btys) was dedicated to the CB battle and the third was used as required. Even in 1917 there are signs of dedicated roles, the artillery organisation for Vimy Ridge, particualry of the heavy artillery, is an example.

The CBSO's role was executive control of the CB battle as directed by the Comd Corps Heavy Artillery, it is actually quite signifcant and represents the dawning realisation that command and control were not the same thing, a near revolutionary doctrinal concept at the time. While his staff may have 'pinpointed' (whatever that means) some HBs, most HP locations were produced by the various sources and agencies (to use the modern terms). Air photography was the most important, sound ranging and flash spotting were also very useful, particulalry for identifying active batteries whose location may already have been known. FOOs weren't much use, although in the advances of 1918 they did have success in locating HBs before they had time to withdraw. More generally FOOs did not have the capabilites to accurately locate HBs deployed behind cover, although like the infantry they did report hostile shelling activity which all fed into the artillery intelligence picture.

Finally CB had two distinct purposes, destruction was the routine one but when hostile fire was impacting own troops the usual goal of CB was neutralisation. They are not the same thing in either purpose or method.

[bcarleton]

Thanks all again. This information is very helpful.

I have today located a demobilization document and it specifically say my grandfather's original unit was the East Anglia (Essex) Heavy Battery RGA. I have also located a 'certificate of employment during the war' and handwritten on it says 'joined unit in January 1916' (meaning 152 Heavy RGA).

According to Long Long Trail, it says: East Anglian (Essex) Heavy Battery RGA, did not sail with the Division (to Gallipoli?); moved independently to France 14 March 1916 and joined XXIII HA Bde.

More clues. More mysteries. This is great.

Thank you

[battiscombe]

prewar - The East Anglian [Essex] Heavy Bty was based in Artillery House, Stratford Green, commanded 1914 by Major S E Wood, with Capt E Jolly, Lt F Roberts, Lt A J Cousin, 2lt Fox, and Lt F D J Knightley responsible for the Ammunition Column.

This was different from the 1st London Heavy Brigade with 1st and 2nd Heavy Btys (based in Islington). There were only a few prewar TF Heavy Btys - which would become their 1/1st Btys and 1/2nd Btys (East Anglian/Esssex. Highland, Home Counties, Lancs x 2. London x 2, Lowland, N Midland, S Midland, Northumbrian, W Riding, Welsh, Wessex - which probably gives one for each Territorial Division - the normal prewar establishment.

[tony paley]

152 Heavy Battery joined 84 HAG from 11 HAG on the 18th December 1917 when the units were in the Ypres area. As a result of the reorginisation of heavy Artillery at that time the 'Groups'were then known as Brigades. This change also meant that from then on batteries generally remained with the same Brigade. Much more efficient method of command and control. 152 heavy remained with 84 Brigade RGA until the armistice , and beyond. This change also meant that the Brigade was responsible for keeping the war diary, although some batteries may have continued the practice, other experts may help here. I have the war diary for 84 Brigade RGA. my Grandfather was the RSM. (Warrant Officer) of this Brigade. If you are interested I may be able to forward copies of the war diaries for the above period, it will give a general idea of the whereabouts of the unit in the greater scheme of things.

Tony P

[bcarleton]

Tony, I would love to see the war diary for 84 HAG from Dec 1917 on. I think that would help me a lot.

Also as a point of clarification about 152 Battery RGA another question: Is it possible there are more than one unit referred to as '152 Heavy Battery'? Or would they be the same?

I see 152 (Hackney) as a new unit formed of volunteers in 1915 in, of course, Hackney. I also see a 152 Heavy Battery RGA appearing under Canadian command.

Or...is it the most likely scenario that when 152 (Hackney) was formed and went to France, it was placed under Canadian control in the 1915-16 period, until they reorganized again to be placed under the british 84 HAG in Dec 1917. If I remember right, I think in situations where there were two heavy batteries of RGA their 'sister' unit was 24 Heavy Battery RGA.

[kevinrowlinson]

152nd (Hackney) Heavy Battery is the same as 152nd Heavy Battery. The most important word is Heavy, as there was a same numbered siege battery.

152 Hvy Bty went out on the 24th April 1916. All batteries joined various Heavy Artillery Groups/Brigades during the war at various times. The allocation for 152 Hvy Bty is

Joined X Corp 30-4-1916

NCBG 8-5-1916

9 Hag 20-6-1916

2nd Canadian HAG 20-3-1917

42 HAG 28-10-1917

11 HAG 15-11-1917

84 HAG 18-12-1917

attached 18 HAG 22/30-12-1917

To rest, refit and training area 31-12-1917

84 HAG 11-2-1918

Made up to 6 guns 5-10-1916, one section from 182 Hvy Bty

Quote, "Or...is it the most likely scenario". It would be as Paul mentioned in earlier post.

Kevin

[bcarleton]

I have been going through the 2nd Canadian HAG war diaries and operations reports, and have gotten through all the daily entries from April to August 1917, before my eyes needed serious rest.

I was pleasantly surprised to see much more detail than I expected and saw daily reports on the activities of 152 Heavy Battery RGA. Since the UK archives has only one very brief war diary from 152 HB RGA, I am now very convinced they stopped doing their own because the 2nd Canadian HAG was doing it.

[kevinrowlinson]

You can read the diary for 152nd Hvy Bty, Northern counter Battery Group, 9 HAG, 42 HAG, 11 HAG and 84 HAG at http://ebookbrowse.com/hackney-rga-152nd-heavy-battery-war-diary-pdf-d140876571 .

A site dedicated to 152nd Hvy Bty is http://www.hackneygunners.co.uk/ .

Kevin