303 Tracer Rifle use?

[17107BM]

Hello all.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick today in conversation at a local War Memorial. To cut a long story short the chap i spoke to said that was a Great War enthusiast and owned Lee Enfield's, legally of course. He also added that tracer rounds can still be obtained?

Have i missed some thing in this conversation.. It was very windy, Very

[TonyE]

Not sure exactly what your question is. There is no .303 inch tracer being made today. The last .303 inch tracer rounds made were the Tracer G Mark 8 made in 1957/58 for Bren guns mounted as spotting rifles on the WOMBAT/MOBAT recoiless anti-tank weapons.

WW2 tracer rounds can still be found, but by now the tracer compositions will have deteriorated such that they seldom light when fired.

Very little tracer was used in WWI in ground service, and what was used was in Vickers guns, not rifles.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

Just to echo TonyE

Small batches of WWII .303 tracer rounds can be found relatively easily in the US (at least I have seen it with some frequency in the past)

I bought a couple of chargers about a decade ago - none "traced" when fired

Chris

[centurion]

I've seen reports that there were problems mixing tracer and ball in a machine gun belt so that in the air tracer seems to have been mainly used in Lewis guns

[TonyE]

It rather depends on which type of tracer one is talking about.

There were two types of tracer in British service, smoke tracers and flame tracers. Flame tracers are generally what is meant when "tracer" is mentioned, as these are the classic type which burn with a flame from the base of the bullet and appear as a streak of light along the trajectory. In WWI these were the RL tracer, Mark VIIT and VIIG.

Smoke tracers on the other hand leave a trail of smoke to mark the bullet's passage and were later re-defined as incendiary rounds. These bullets are phosphorus filled which leaks from a small hole in the bullet jacket and ignites on contact with the air and generates the smoke. In WWI these were the Buckingham VIIB Marks I,II and III.

I do not recall any problem with mixing ball, AP and flame tracers in Vickers belts, but I am not sure if the Buckinghams were confined to Lewis guns. Certainly the more dangerous Pomeroy and RTS explosive rounds were only used in the Lewis because of the danger of a synchronisation failure and an explosive bullet hitting the propellor if used in the Vickers. Also, both these types were prone to bore prematures.

Buckingham smoke tracers were much more stable but pilots may have prefered not to load them in belts. I am not sure so will see what I can find in the various Gunnery Notes I have.

Just to illustrate what a smoke tracer looks like, this picture was taken at Hythe when Mr.Buckingham was demonstrating his bullet. (and notice it is a Lewis he is using)

Regards

TonyE

[the83man]

Tracer rounds were also used in rifles, of course, to mark enemy targets during fire control orders as in "watch my tracer".

Mike

[TonyE]

Certainly that was the case in WW2, but do you have any evidence of such use in WW1?

I have never seen anything that suggests any of the WW1 tracers were issued as trench stores for rifles, although there appears to have been some use of tracers by ground machine guns at the very end of the war.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Some of this already covered

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104583&view=findpost&p=990500

[MikB]

Smoke tracers of the sort that used air-exposure to ignite phosphorus compound via a hole in the bullet's bearing surface were still working in about 1995, from some gossip I remember hearing at Bisley - though I didn't actually see them, and don't know exactly what variety they were.

Regards,

MikB

[17107BM]

Thanks to all for your replies. A very interesting subject and one i hadn't given much thought to before last weekends chance conversation. If it is the case that 303 tracer is no longer around then i did indeed mis hear what the chap was saying.

Cheers all.

[Thunderbox]

If it is the case that 303 tracer is no longer around then i did indeed mis hear what the chap was saying.

303 tracer is no longer made, but there is still quite a bit of old military surplus tracer ammunition about - e.g. I've got about 300 rounds. I know of one or two people that still have belted Vickers ammo stashed away, so a few shooters will still have access to tracer.

[centurion]

303 tracer is no longer made, but there is still quite a bit of old military surplus tracer ammunition about - e.g. I've got about 300 rounds. I know of one or two people that still have belted Vickers ammo stashed away, so a few shooters will still have access to tracer.

Is there a shoot by date for this sort of stuff?

[Thunderbox]

Is there a shoot by date for this sort of stuff?

The Army would have had a "use by" date; I don't know what it is for current 7.62mm tracer, but i imagine its something like 5-10 years only, after which the batch would be destroyed or - in the past - sold as surplus.

Civilian shooters of historic military rifles (often both past their own "sell by" date...) usually just load any old crud into their rifle and wait to see what happens when the trigger is squeezed..... What does happen really depends upon the way the particular round has been stored or handled over many decades: damp and air can eventually degrade primers and tracer fillings. As is mentioned above, old tracer natures often do not "ignite". However, many ancient rounds work just fine - occasionally causing a bit of fun when a previously unidentified tracer round goes down a Bisley range in a blaze of glory!

[Ogilwy]

Modern Tracer compositions are given a 10 year life. But only in good storage! After that it deteriorates with more and more failures occuring as time passes. 'In Service' life will depend on when the ammunition reaches a percentage of failures that is un-acceptable in front line use, it then becomes for training and can carry on in that guise for a considerable time.

WW1 tracer as Tony points out would have a very poor 'trace' rate and with the breakdown of the composition I would suggest that single figure percentages would be lucky! I did some research into WW1 Tracer, Explosive and Incendiary ammunition some time ago and actually looked at the issue of them. I found no reference to Ground units being issued it, but, Soldiers being Soldiers will always want anything new! If you can think of half a reason why you should have something that's normally enough! Combine that with the soldiers ability to scrounge or 'Prof' just about anything then it turning up in a trench is not unbelievable.

Tony,

Looking at the smoke tracer picture, you wouldn't want to use that in the ground role! A straight line like that pointing to where you just fired from would probably gain you considerable attention from the neighbours! It would certainly negate the use of smokeless propellant!

By the way, proof of any of the 'other' .303's in a trench (or any ground role) would be exceptionally interesting and useful to me for my studies. As an archaeologist, a properly verifiable context would be gold plated!

Rod

[TonyE]

Hi Rod

I can offer you this as verification of AP Mark VIIP being issued for trench use by snipers. Sorry that it is about a third generation photocopy though!

For those of you who are not cartridge anoraks like me, the VIIP was the Kynoch designed AP round c.1915 that had a narrow .19 inch steel core. It could only defeat sniper shields at very close range and was improved by RL Woolwich by using a wider .25 inch core. This became the VIIW and stayed in service for the next forty years, right through WW2.

NB: In 1917 AP was just considered another type of Ball ammo.

Regards

TonyE

[Ogilwy]

Tony,

Fantastic! We anoracks (Nee spotters) must stick together. Now I need to find evidence on site! Is the HS different from the normal VII at all? The addition of a P or W would be lovely and as I'm nowhwere near my library until later I thought I'd ask and allow you to show your expertise yet more!!

I'll drop you a line over the next week when I'm on leave!

Rod

[centurion]

There was a degree of uncertainty at the time as to the legality of tracer in rounds under 37mm (based on the Declaration of St. Petersburg, 1868) as this question in the Commons shows.

Tracer Bullets.

COLONEL NORTON GRIFFITHS asked the Secretary for War whether certain of our airmen had been captured with Tracer bullets used for range-finding with machine guns in their possession, and in consequence were awaiting Court-martial and were in imminent danger of being sentenced to death ; whether Tracer bullets have been found on Zeppelin raiders captured in this country ; and, if so, whether he would see that the same penalties were imposed upon them as were imposed upon our airmen by the enemy.

Mr. Lloyd George : It is probable that some officers or men of the Royal Flying Corps who have been captured have had Tracer bullets used for range-finding in their aeroplanes. Cartridges with explosive bullets were found in one of the German airships which were brought down in this country. The Army Council have no official information as to any Courts-martial of prisoners of the Royal Flying Corps.

In fact the position was not clarified until 1922 when a supplement to the Hague Convention to cover air fighting was produced and ARTICLE XVIII specifically stated

"The use of tracer, incendiary, or explosive projectiles by or against air, is not prohibited.

This provision applies equally to States which are parties to the Declaration of St. Petersburg, 1868, and to those which are not."

[MikB]

Civilian shooters of historic military rifles (often both past their own "sell by" date...) usually just load any old crud into their rifle and wait to see what happens when the trigger is squeezed.....

No we d***** well don't. Most of us value our pieces and appreciate the privilege of being able to own and shoot 'em. Most of us make sure we use clean, modern or properly home-loaded ammunition to a proven formula. Most of don't want to spend time pouring boiling water down barrels to clear out corrosive priming residue, or burn out the leed using old cordite loads with high flame temperatures.

Regards,

MikB