Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Cheshire Bantams Shoulder titles


gerd.deboeck

Recommended Posts

Hello everybody,

I was wondering if somebody could describe the shoulder titles of the Cheshire Bantams (15-16 & 17th Bn). Was it curved Cheshire with a number above or was it an acorn or... I've had a look on the web but only found pictures of Territorial or yeomanry shoulder titles.

Thanks,

Gerd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello everybody,

I was wondering if somebody could describe the shoulder titles of the Cheshire Bantams (15-16 & 17th Bn). Was it curved Cheshire with a number above or was it an acorn or... I've had a look on the web but only found pictures of Territorial or yeomanry shoulder titles.

Thanks,

Gerd

Like this Gerd. As a Service Battalion there was no number or T surmounting as there was with Territorial Battalions.

post-599-0-22853200-1323478037.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like this Gerd. As a Service Battalion there was no number or T surmounting as there was with Territorial Battalions.

Thanks for the picture, now I know what to look for (I'm having a uniform replicated for my 10 year old son's school play, and thought it only fair to give him the insignia from an Bantam Bn, as he's just under 5 feet). I suppose a bimetal Cheshire capbadge would accompany these?

Just to make sure I got it right: A service Bn is extra Bn to the regiment whereasmost other New Army Bn were extra's to existing Bn (2/1st Bn HAC) correct?

Gerd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for thepicture, now I know what to look for (I'm having a uniform replicated for my 10year old son's school play, and thought it only fair to give him the insigniafrom an Bantam Bn, as he's just under 5 feet). I suppose a bimetal Cheshire capbadge would accompany these?

Just to make sure I got it right: A service Bn is extra Bn to the regiment whereasmost other New Army Bn were extra's to existing Bn (2/1st Bn HAC) correct?

Gerd

A Service Battalion was a war raised battalion formed of volunteers, often from specific towns, cities and even professions and sports groups (footballers etc). They took precedence (as shown by numbering) after the Regular (usually 1st and 2nd), Reserve (usually 3rd) and Territorial (usually, e.g. 4th, 5th 6th), so a typical Service Battalion might be the 8th (and onwards).

The bi-metal badge was usually worn by the Regular and Territorial Battalions and the so-called 'economy' badges in all brass were often worn by the Service Battalions, although as the war went on these all became mixed up as soldiers moved to and fro between units.

post-599-0-13957700-1323519059.jpg

post-599-0-77341600-1323519218.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Service Battalion was a war raised battalion formed of volunteers, often from specific towns, cities and even professions and sports groups (footballers etc). They took precedence (as shown by numbering) after the Regular (usually 1st and 2nd), Reserve (usually 3rd) and Territorial (usually, e.g. 4th, 5th 6th), so a typical Service Battalion might be the 8th (and onwards).

The bi-metal badge was usually worn by the Regular and Territorial Battalions and the so-called 'economy' badges in all brass were often worn by the Service Battalions, although as the war went on these all became mixed up as soldiers moved to and from between units.

and here is the 'economy' badge.

Wow the speed of your reply really impressed me! Thanks for the clarification on the Service Bn. The all brass are more difficult to find but I think it's worth the extra effort.Last question: any idée what the 35 division's badge would look like? Google only gives me US 35 division hits (even when I type British?!).

Gerd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow the speed of yourreply really impressed me! Thanks for the clarification on the Service Bn. Theall brass are more difficult to find but I think it's worth the extra effort.Last question: any idée what the 35 division's badge would look like? Google onlygives me US 35 division hits (even when I type British?!).

Gerd

The 35th Infantry Division was originally raised for the Fifth New Army as the 42nd Division, it was renumbered as the 35th when the Fifth New Army was redesignated as the Fourth New Army in April 1915. By June 1915, the division had begun to congregate at Masham, and in August it was moved to Salisbury Plain. Initially ordered to Egypt at the end of the year, it was instead transferred to the Western Front in February 1916. It remained there for the rest of the war.

The first major engagement of the division was the Battle of Albert during the Somme offensive in the summer of 1916.

Later, the division participated in final allied offensive, reaching the River Dendre when the armistice ended the fighting in November 1918.

In January 1919, the division was called on to quell riots in the camps at Calais, and was finally demobilized, in April 1919.

I enclose an image of the divisional sign at that time (these sometimes changed for WW2 if the division was in existence between 1939-45). I do not know if the sign was worn as a badge on uniforms, although there was a system of 'battle patches' in most British units from 1916 onwards to show brigade and division. You would need to consult a specialist in that area (of whom there are several in this forum) to identify what was worn by Cheshire Regt units in the 35th Div.

post-599-0-21943300-1323520917.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, Again thanks,

gerd

Gerd, soldiers of the Service Battalions generally had special leather equipment with a distinct belt fastened by a snake shaped buckle.

post-599-0-72598500-1323522878.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the original 35th. Bantam Division before the 7 X 5 badge.

Colin.

Do you know if they wore a bantam badge on their uniforms?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alas I am unaware if the emblem was ever worn before the 7X5 was brought in. There is so little information about the 35th. , so very few relics of this division, there was supposed to be an emblem in Bruxelles but it came to nothing.

Colin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alas I am unaware if the emblem was ever worn before the 7X5 was brought in. There is so little information about the 35th. , so very few relics of this division, there was supposed to be an emblem in Bruxelles but it came to nothing.

Colin.

Thanks Colin. There is a bit of an explanation here that you might be interested in: http://www.naval-mil...-great-war.html

It seems that the badge changed in 1917.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Frogsmile , however I have the book & all the others relating to the 35th/40th. Divisions.

Colin.

Were you aware that this (see image) is being sold as an 'original badge' of the 35th Div in WW1 ?

post-599-0-22390300-1323539881.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerd, soldiers of the Service Battalions generally had special leather equipment with a distinct belt fastened by a snake shaped buckle.

THIS I did know. I already ordered a replica one from MHW. I also had a look at the conversation about the 35th div. Nothing is ever simple about WW1, is it? Well one thing is for sure: a 5 feet tall Bantam of the 15th Bn Cheshire probably wasn't wearing any Divisional sign in 1916, so I don't have to worry about that.

I've had a look for a cap badge and shoulder titles on the web, but it seems that there are non for sale (for the moment).

Thanks for the help.

gerd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

THIS I did know. I already ordered a replica one from MHW. I also had a look at the conversation about the 35th div. Nothing is ever simple about WW1, is it? Well one thing is for sure: a 5 feet tall Bantam of the 15th Bn Cheshire probably wasn't wearing any Divisional sign in 1916, so I don't have to worry about that.

I've had a look for a cap badge and shoulder titles on the web, but it seems that there are non for sale (for the moment).

Thanks for the help.

gerd

Gerd if a reproduction badge is not a problem for your purposes I might be able to recommend a source?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerd if a reproduction badge is not a problem for your purposes I might be able to recommend a source?

Thanks for the offer, but I think I found one in Canada. If this shoudn't work out I will contact you again.

Gerd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well it won't be the first or last rip off re. WW1 items, if an original emblem is ever discovered it should bring a good reward. Chris & myself have tried everything but no luck to date.

Colin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well it won't be the first or last rip off re. WW1 items, if an original emblem is ever discovered it should bring a good reward. Chris & myself have tried everything but no luck to date.

Colin.

I've looked and looked and never seen any sign, no pun intended, of any sign of the 35th being worn.

40th different.

I am aware of of a WO tunic to the 23rd Cheshires with the 40th Div sign up. Very late war, but undoubtedly genuine tunic and patch. I also attach an image of the 40th div sign being worn by RA elements.

40DivGunners001.jpg

40DivGunnersClose002.jpg

Cheers,

GT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Gt. Yes I remember the previous article about the 40th.Div. & it's patch, still looking for a 35th. "cockerel" , perhaps one day.

Colin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Gt. Yes I remember the previous article about the 40th.Div. & it's patch, still looking for a 35th. "cockerel" , perhaps one day.

Colin.

There was a lone bantam type cloth badge for sale on ebay recently, but the colours did not appear right for the 35th Division and there was some suggestion that it might have been a WW2 badge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quite right it was not the original , if ever you see or hear of one do let me know, thanks. I would have thought that Birkenhead/Liverpool might have had some relics but it appears not.

Colin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bi-metal badge was usually worn by the Regular and Territorial Battalions and the so-called 'economy' badges in all brass were often worn by the Service Battalions, although as the war went on these all became mixed up as soldiers moved to and fro between units.

Interesting - are you saying that this 'economy' cap badge restricted usage was for the Cheshires in particular, or all regiments issued with all-brass badges? I know the Manchester Pals wore all brass, non-voided badges, but these were not economy versions per se.

Cheers

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting - are you saying that this 'economy' cap badge restricted usage was for the Cheshires in particular, or all regiments issued with all-brass badges? I know the Manchester Pals wore all brass, non-voided badges, but these were not economy versions per se.

Cheers

Peter

Not really Peter, I think the badges became increasingly mixed up as the war went on, but in principle the Regular and Reserve battalions were initially well provided with bi-metal badges, the Territorial Associations purchased their own for the Territorial battalions, and the so-called economy (but in reality 'simplified) badges seemed to coincide with the mass recruiment of volunteers from the general population in the Service battalions of the New Armies. These latter as you well know had to scrabble around for uniforms and equipment and it seems as if they increasingly got the brunt (if not all) of their badges from the surge in production of the simplified (all GM) badges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...