A 98/05 sawback puzzle

[trajan]

Hi one and all,

I referred to this one on another thread (http://1914-1918.inv...1, post no. 7), and FINALLY after 6 months got it down to what I thought was a reasonable price of TL 220 = about USD 100 (remember, all bayonets are expensive here in Turkey). But, what is it? And is it 'pukka'?

It has no flash guard, so it is ostensibly an 'alter Art'. I can see traces of grinding on the ears so it may have had high ears originally - also, when viewed from above, the muzzle ring is stress-cracked half-way through: so confirmation of a kind it was originally a high-eared 'alter Art', then strapped in a vice and the ears ground down (OUCH!)... BUT it has no maker's mark on the obverse ricasso (although there is a hint there may have been one that was later ground off); and there are no spine markings at all (although there is a trace of what might be a '6' - but at the point where the inspector/fraktur mark would usually be). Note also that the blade width at the (pointed) end of the sawback is 3 cm - my other two sawback 98/05's are 3.3 and 3.6 cm wide at that point. Also, the sawback on this one is 'cross-grained' - it goes from left to right when viewed from above, and not right to left. And note that the cleaning 'hole' is only half the length of what is usual in a 98/05...

On the other hand, there is a crowned inspection mark on the reverse side of the pommel above the press-stud (it's a crown over something over a number which looks like '22'). It has a serial number '272' centrally placed on the reverse side of the crossguard.

My overall feeling is that this is 'pukka': there are just too many nice details to indicate it is real and not a fake (e.g., patina, rust spots on blade, and the lack of a makers' and a spine mark countered by the pommel inspection mark).

Any comments? All feedback is welcomed!

Trajan

PS: For those of you who like bayonets in general - I found another Turkish-made Garand M5 today, so that's a total of THREE that are known of!

[trajan]

Having finally worked out how the resizing thing works with some new software here is a better picture...

Trajan

[jscott]

Trajan - whilst I am no expert this looks fairly legit to me from the attached photo. I know that the weight of the 98/05s varied quite considerably depending on where and when they were made, so I suspect that the size difference may not be unusual. The missing maker mark is normal, but not sure about the varied sawback pattern you describe.

Also, are they even making fake 98/05s? I would have thought that the effort to produce something with such obvious indicators of age (as the photo seems to show) would be extremely difficult. Given that you handle bayonets regularly I would trust your instinct and buy it! USD100 for a sawback with no scabbard is pretty reasonable.

[shippingsteel]

Looks OK to me Trajan - I would think that it was originally a regular S98/05 aA S that was modified during the war to have its high ears ground down.

Not all earlier bayonets were retrofitted with the flashguard, and not all the bayonets are found with makers marks or acceptance marks on the spine.

So in all respects it is a relatively standard S98/05 bayonet, and I would suspect the narrower point is due to extra sharpening over a tough service life.

I have a similar type high eared sawback removed bayonet made in 1915 that also shows the hairline 'crack' over the top of the muzzlering/crossguard.

It is interesting that this 'crack' appears to have been a design concept, as it is incorporated into the plan drawings of the S98/05 shown in Carter's book.

Its width is given at precisely 0.5mm, but surprisingly this doesn't seem to appear in the later wartime dated bayonets. The idea must have been dropped.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Thanks jscott and S>S for the helpful replies!

jscott: Well, I gather that there are fake 98/05's out there, but it was the corrosion marks, the presence of the tiny (about 2 mm) inpection mark on the pommel, and the LACK of the other expected official marks that really inclined me to thinking this was the real thing: the corrosion marks aside, if I was faking a bayonet I'd be careful to get the usual and expected marks in place - but I might just miss that 2 mm pommel mark! As for the sawback on this, well it has the right number of teeth, it was just that they are - as I said - cross-grained, in going from left-to-right, which made me wonder a bit. But, there again, my experience of 98/05's is really limited to neuer Arte Waffenfabrik Mauser types, with sawbacks going right-to-left, so I was prepared to accept this as a variation, being an alte Arte made by another maker.

S>S: Thanks for the extra re-assurance! As you say, originally a regular S98/05 a.A. m.S, with its high ears ground down. Actually, one of the other things that made me go for this one as legitimate was the dark wood handle: it's quite unlike what I am used to on the Waffenfabrik Mauser 98/05's (a light coloured oak(?)), but it seemed/s to match in 'texture' and colour the one on your 1915 high eared sawback removed, which you illustrated on another thread. Any idea what kind of wood this is?

This hairline 'crack' over the top of the muzzlering/crossguard is intriguing - never thought that this might have been a design concept. Which leads me onto a request - could/would you be so really very kind and helpful as to PM me with a scan of the plan drawings of the S98/05 as shown in Carter's book? It would be much appreciated!

Thanks again, marrers, for helpful advice and comments,

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

It is interesting that this 'crack' appears to have been a design concept, as it is incorporated into the plan drawings of the S98/05 shown in Carter's book.

Its width is given at precisely 0.5mm, but surprisingly this doesn't seem to appear in the later wartime dated bayonets. The idea must have been dropped.

As requested I have attached the portion of the drawings that describe the features of the crossguard in question. The full drawings run to about 13 pages in total.!

Like I advised our friend Jscott a little while back, you need to get yourself a copy of the book "German Bayonets" by Carter. Used copies are often found on ebay.

PS. Oh and make sure to get the one subtitled with "The Models 98/02 and 98/05" as it is devoted specifically to the study of these type of German bayonets.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

I recently picked up a copy on ebay for GBP15 - its an excellent book.

Thanks again for the tip S/S!

[trajan]

Thanks S>S for the cross-guard illustration. Wow, I had no idea how detailed the design drawings might have been: talk about 'Vorsprung durch technik - und serious over-obsession with minutiae'! And of course I simply had no idea just how thorough Carter's research had been...

On which point, your advice (and jscott's) re: it is time to get a copy of Carter is acknowledged and accepted. I had held off from this before as it hardly seemed worthwhile when I only had two 98/05's to play with: but now that I have somehow accumulated five of those plus another five ersatz jobs (on which our friend Wardog has provided much help), yes, it is time to build up the library. Great minds, though, clearly think alike... Last night, while discussing Christmas presents, and long before reading your posts, I just happened to mention to the better half that a copy of a Carter "German Bayonets" or "Ersatz Bayonets" would be more than gratefully received...!!! Be nice if I can find one of either of these for anything approaching GBP 15 - searching in the past through Am*z*n shows some much more pricier versions!

Trajan

[jscott]

Hi Trajan

Try ebay, I found my copy there. Im sure youll enjoy it!

J

[trajan]

.. Try ebay, I found my copy there. Im sure youll enjoy it! J

Have been doing so but no luck as yet. I have also done several web-searches through book-dealers and although most of the copies I have found are soft/paper cover, some are hardcover - and none yet for less than GBP 100 /USD 160 or so...!

Trajan

[trajan]

Merry Xmas one and all!

Santa and elves having delivered a Carter 98/02 - 98/05 book, well, blow me down... The mystery about my 98/05 deepens and remains a puzzle in some highly significant ways.

1) Correct number of teeth (29/58) and correct length for sawback (26.5mm or so) BUT teeth start left to right, not right to left as per official specifications as in Carter

2) The grip bolts are reversed (dome is on the right side) and they are plated, so possibly a 'dress' job, BUT it has a Bayerische-type number (272) on the left crossguard

3) Clearance hole is not a 5/6 mm horizontal slot, just a 1 m horizontal 'dash'.

4) Minimum blade width at 2.6 mm is ok but maximum at 3.00 mm. is too narrow (could be due to sharpening?)

5) It does not have an obvious false edge.

5) Blade length is a bit short at 36.

6) The 'ears' are certainly filed down.

Ooooh, need to do a bit more research on this one...

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

Trajan, if it has seen post-war service with the Turks I am not really surprised that it is 'non-standard'.! They got a lot of surplus gear from Germany after the war.

And as we know they were reknowned for reworking their equipment to keep it in service. The serial number on the crossguard does suggest post German usage.

It could possibly have started life as an 'extra-seitengewehr' or the grips could have been replaced at some stage with donor parts from such a 'dress' bayonet.?

The lack of the false edge is correct for an earlier a.A. style 98/05, as the grinding and sharpening of the false edge was brought in later for improved penetration.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

On 04/12/2011 at 18:52, trajan said:

Hi one and all,

I referred to this one on another thread (http://1914-1918.inv...1, post no. 7), and FINALLY after 6 months got it down to what I thought was a reasonable price of TL 220 = about USD 100 (remember, all bayonets are expensive here in Turkey).

 

I thought I'd boot this up as I had hoped to discover from the Vorontsov book the maker of this anoymous and well-scrubbed bayonet from the pommel fraktur. But, even that has been bashed so no luck there...  But a useful bayonet to revisit anyway as it is one of these funny n.A. transitionals... I had throught it had retained its original false edge (see e.g. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/268814-newish-german-bayonet-book/ but no, it has been 'edged' and polished over... Still odd though with the saw-teeth going the wrong way!

 

Oh, and the maker? I still have no idea... It is just possible that it is '[ERFUR]T'

 

And finally, looking back on how much I paid for it seven years ago - "TL 220 = about USD 100". It is now TL 530 = USD 100, and it is rare to find one of these for less than TL 1000... 

 

Edited 9 January , 2019 by trajan