2nd Lieut. John Fisher, 2/5 Lincolnshire Regt., formerly Coldstream Gu

[bethwilkinson]

John Fisher was born on 2nd January 1894. He enlisted at Hull, his birthplace, on 29th August, 1914. I have read his Officer's File at the National Archives (WO339/123174) & the information below is taken from this document.

• He joined the Coldstream Guards as a private & was placed in the 4th ® Battalion. He was posted to France on 15th August 1915 as a member of the 4th (Pioneer) Battalion. He progressed through the ranks & was appointed unpaid Lance sergeant on 12th January 1917. His number was 11225.
• He was trained as a signaller & evidently showed some aptitude for this, for he was appointed assistant instructor in signalling on 22nd August 1916.
• He was recommended for a commission on 10th July 1917. The recommendation was that he join the Lincolnshire Regiment, with a view to attachment to the Signal Service.
• He joined the 1st Bn of the Lincolnshire Regt.,as a 2nd Lieutenant, but was attached to the 2nd/5th Bn, part of the 59th Division, 177th Brigade.
• The attachment to the Signal Service seems not to have materialised for he died, of wounds sustained in action, as a member of 2nd/5th, in 101st Field Ambulance, Belgium, on 17th April 1918. I imagine he was wounded in the Battle of Bailleul.

The following are the areas I would really appreciate help with.

• As a member of the Guards Pioneer Battalion, trained as a signaller, what was his role exactly? Did the pioneers fight or were they just responsible for infra-structure work?
• Before he was appointed unpaid lance sergeant on 12th January 1917, he had been acting unpaid lance sergeant since 21st August 1916. Was it common for men to occupy a role that they were not paid for?
• Why might his attachment to the Signal Service not have materialised?
• Am I correct in thinking that he probably died in the Battle of Bailleul? Can anyone let me know any more about this action?
• Did all of the division fight in every battle? I ask this because I have read an account based on the 2/5th's War Diary somewhere, relating to a battle on 21st March, 1918. This lists the officers surviving on the morning of the 22nd, including three 2nd Lieutenants, but not John Fisher. Since he evidently did survive, if only to be killed a few weeks later, where was he?

Any help with any of these questions would be greatly appreciated.

[Old Owl]

Hi Beth,

Welcome to the Forum.

You have obviously been doing your homework on John Fisher!! Many 'new' officers are missed out from war diary entries, usually because the person who wrote the diary simply did not know or could not remember their names--I suppose that there were more pressing things to see to!!

It may be worth checking the local newspapers for Hull, around March, April and May,1918, as there should be a good chance of finding some useful info-- which may answer all your questions?

According to the Regimental History the 2/5th Bn were involved at the Battle of Bailleul, 13th --15th April,1918, where they took a significant part in the action, but it would seem that John Fisher survived this action only to be killed in action on the 17th April, 1918.

"At 8 a.m. on the 17th the Composite Battalion(known as Major Holmes's Battalion)marched to the assembly positions and were ordered to take up positions in a wood about 750 yds south of Locre, where companies set to work immediately to dig shell shelters. They had, however, hardly started when the enemy shelled the wood violently. The wood was then evacuated and positions dug in rear of it. One officer of the 2/5th (2nd Lieutenant J.Fisher) was killed and another (2nd Lieutenant V.du Plergny) was mortally wounded. Fifteen other ranks were killed or wounded. At about 11.30 p.m. the Composite Battalion was ordered to return to the huts at Locre."

Hope this helps a little?

Robert

[Bingo794]

Beth

I too have been researching a 4th(Pioneer) Battalion Coldstreams Guards man, enlisted Hull 01/05/1915, No.16076 L/Cpl. Arthur Thompson born 15/09/1891 in Brigg, Lincolnshire and was a Hull Policeman.

When this man was sent to theatre from Southampton on 15/12/1915 he was destined for the 4th, but by the 27/12/1915 his transfer to the 7th Entrenching Battalion of the 3rd Army was in place. His Casualty Form/Active or Army Form B.103 states this.

He stayed with the battalion until he was released to commission 05/02/1917 when he was posted to the 5th Reserve Battalion. Then onto officer training and on 31/07/1917, a posting to the 24/27th Northumberland Fusiliers, London Gazette 01/09/1917. He was KIA with this unit 22 or 23/10/1917. His preferred unit for serving as an officer was the Lincolnshire Regiment, but at that time, you were put where needed.

These Pioneers were in fact fighting men, though were expected to supply labour as and when required. Often been placed in trench systems which needed shoring up or sorting out, before another unit moved in. Of course you cannot legislate where the enemy will attack next, so these hardy men would have to do their fair share of the fighting.

Your mans Officers papers should have his initial service record with his later details.

Many of the service records show that promotions were unpaid for long periods, he could have reverted back to a Private at anytime. Some requested this, some did not. Some were made permanent and paid.

The fact that his signalling posting did not materialise is that there was a section which dealt with signals in an infantry unit, not necessarily needing an officer in charge. First and foremost he was trained as an infantry officer. The main signals units were a part of the Royal Engineers. The Corps of Signals did not come into being until June, 1920.

Hope this helps a little.

Dick Whitworth

[bethwilkinson]

Hello Robert,

Thank you for your kind welcome to the Forum & for your very helpful reply.

Researching John Fisher has been a really interesting voyage of discovery. It all started with a signed picture of an unknown soldier, found in my grandmother's photo collection. I was puzzled, because he was an officer, & I hadn't expected to find an officer in the family! From the cap badge I found he was in the Lincolns; and then, from further family history research, discovered he was my grandmother's cousin. It has been truly fascinating & I have learnt a great deal.

Finding that he sustained his wounds in a wood south of Locre makes perfect sense; the family were informed that he was buried 750 yards south-west of Locre. I'm puzzled that the report says he was killed in the shelling & the other chap fatally wounded, since the report in the file says John died of wounds in the field hospital. But I guess such pernickety-ness is misplaced, given the awful circumstances they were all in at the time. Does this account come from the regimental History? Is it a book one can buy?

I see you're a Yorkshireman, or at least based in Yorkshire. Do you have any suggestions as to what might be the best Hull paper to start looking in? I've just got a reader's ticket for the British Library newspaper archives.

Many thanks once again for your help

Beth

Hi Beth,

Welcome to the Forum.

You have obviously been doing your homework on John Fisher!! Many 'new' officers are missed out from war diary entries, usually because the person who wrote the diary simply did not know or could not remember their names--I suppose that there were more pressing things to see to!!

It may be worth checking the local newspapers for Hull, around March, April and May,1918, as there should be a good chance of finding some useful info-- which may answer all your questions?

According to the Regimental History the 2/5th Bn were involved at the Battle of Bailleul, 13th --15th April,1918, where they took a significant part in the action, but it would seem that John Fisher survived this action only to be killed in action on the 17th April, 1918.

"At 8 a.m. on the 17th the Composite Battalion(known as Major Holmes's Battalion)marched to the assembly positions and were ordered to take up positions in a wood about 750 yds south of Locre, where companies set to work immediately to dig shell shelters. They had, however, hardly started when the enemy shelled the wood violently. The wood was then evacuated and positions dug in rear of it. One officer of the 2/5th (2nd Lieutenant J.Fisher) was killed and another (2nd Lieutenant V.du Plergny) was mortally wounded. Fifteen other ranks were killed or wounded. At about 11.30 p.m. the Composite Battalion was ordered to return to the huts at Locre."

Hope this helps a little?

Robert

[bethwilkinson]

Hello Dick,

Thanks for your very helpful reply. Your man's route to becoming an officer seems very similar to mine. John Fisher was also posted to the 5th Reserve Battalion prior to attending Officer Training (in number 16, Officer Cadet Battalion, joining at Rhyl on 7th September 1917). John's mother's family all came from Lincolnshire, so maybe the suggestion that he join the Lincolns came from him.

I'd thought the Pioneers must have done some fighting, given the conditions at the time. And if they were busy repairing trenches, they were obviously in the front line. I'm surprised John lasted as long as he did.

I find it amazing that these chaps were promoted & unpaid for long periods. You wouldn't get that nowadays!

What you say about the signals makes sense. His record shows that he was a very proficient signalling sergeant - once he had become an officer, I guess he was more useful elsewhere.

Thanks again for your kind help,

Beth

Beth

I too have been researching a 4th(Pioneer) Battalion Coldstreams Guards man, enlisted Hull 01/05/1915, No.16076 L/Cpl. Arthur Thompson born 15/09/1891 in Brigg, Lincolnshire and was a Hull Policeman.

When this man was sent to theatre from Southampton on 15/12/1915 he was destined for the 4th, but by the 27/12/1915 his transfer to the 7th Entrenching Battalion of the 3rd Army was in place. His Casualty Form/Active or Army Form B.103 states this.

He stayed with the battalion until he was released to commission 05/02/1917 when he was posted to the 5th Reserve Battalion. Then onto officer training and on 31/07/1917, a posting to the 24/27th Northumberland Fusiliers, London Gazette 01/09/1917. He was KIA with this unit 22 or 23/10/1917. His preferred unit for serving as an officer was the Lincolnshire Regiment, but at that time, you were put where needed.

These Pioneers were in fact fighting men, though were expected to supply labour as and when required. Often been placed in trench systems which needed shoring up or sorting out, before another unit moved in. Of course you cannot legislate where the enemy will attack next, so these hardy men would have to do their fair share of the fighting.

Your mans Officers papers should have his initial service record with his later details.

Many of the service records show that promotions were unpaid for long periods, he could have reverted back to a Private at anytime. Some requested this, some did not. Some were made permanent and paid.

The fact that his signalling posting did not materialise is that there was a section which dealt with signals in an infantry unit, not necessarily needing an officer in charge. First and foremost he was trained as an infantry officer. The main signals units were a part of the Royal Engineers. The Corps of Signals did not come into being until June, 1920.

Hope this helps a little.

Dick Whitworth

[RammyLad1]

Beth,

The Hull history centre on Worship street, Hull HU2 8DG, holds the following papers on microfilm.

Hull news, Hull times, Hull daily / evening news, Hull daily mail. According the their website these were all in print in 14-18, so these may be of use to you. I reccomend having a look on the History centre website and taking it from there.

Duncan

[Old Owl]

Hi Beth,

The information which I quoted is from "The History of the Lincolnshire Regiment 1914-1918" by Simpson. I think that you can buy either original copies, which may cost circa £75-£90? or more? or reprints from: www.naval-military-press.com for probably around £25-£30. I am only guessing at these prices but am probably in the right 'ball park'? This history has a very poor index so it is neccessary to read the text in detail around the date in question.

Although I live in Yorkshire I am quite some distance from Hull and have never, to date. checked any of the Hull papers myself, although I believe that they are quite good and John being an officer may have attracted more attention than the average non-com, however I am only guessing at this!! It may be worth Googling for Hull Central Library and give them a call--they may even have a look for you if you email them the details, of course they may charge you? but it could be cheaper than a trip to Colindale? depending on where you live. Generally the Local History Sections of libraries can be quite helpful--perhaps you could let me know how you go on?

I am sure that members would be interested to see the photo of John, if you are willing to post it here.

Good luck with your quest,

Robert

[Stebie9173]

Pioneer battalions were much in demand and actually usually spent much longer in the danger areas than their Infantry counterparts due to this usefulness. They also acted as "Assault Pioneers". Their task was to stand by when a major attack went over, and once the German trench was captured, would dig connecting trenches (known as communication trenches) between the old front line and the new one, to enable ammunition, grenades, and other equipment to be brought forward. And, of course, the Germans knew full well where their old trenches and no mans land were so this would usually be done under heavy artillery fire.

Steve.

[Old Owl]

Beth,

Duncan seems to have provided some useful info on the local press plus another contact point--so just go for it!!

Happy Researching,

Robert

[bethwilkinson]

Hello Dunacn

Thanks so much for your helpful advice, I'll certainly make looking at the history centre website a priority.

Best wishes & thanks again,

Beth

Beth,

The Hull history centre on Worship street, Hull HU2 8DG, holds the following papers on microfilm.

Hull news, Hull times, Hull daily / evening news, Hull daily mail. According the their website these were all in print in 14-18, so these may be of use to you. I reccomend having a look on the History centre website and taking it from there.

Duncan

[bethwilkinson]

Hello again Robert,

Many thanks for the reference for the quote & the suggestion about Hull.

It was really useful to get the contact details from Duncan, I'll check this out as soon as I can & will let you know how I get on.

I'd be more than happy to put John's picture on the site, if you think other members would be interested. I think it's lovely, he looks so proud. A poor, orphaned working class boy made good! Finding out who John was also solved another family photo mystery - that of two young women, one in WAAC uniform & wearing a black armband - they were his two sisters.

I just have to read up how to add photos - I can do it in emails, this will be a new challenge that will have to wait until this evening!

Best wishes & thanks again,

Beth

Hi Beth,

The information which I quoted is from "The History of the Lincolnshire Regiment 1914-1918" by Simpson. I think that you can buy either original copies, which may cost circa £75-£90? or more? or reprints from: www.naval-military-press.com for probably around £25-£30. I am only guessing at these prices but am probably in the right 'ball park'? This history has a very poor index so it is neccessary to read the text in detail around the date in question.

Although I live in Yorkshire I am quite some distance from Hull and have never, to date. checked any of the Hull papers myself, although I believe that they are quite good and John being an officer may have attracted more attention than the average non-com, however I am only guessing at this!! It may be worth Googling for Hull Central Library and give them a call--they may even have a look for you if you email them the details, of course they may charge you? but it could be cheaper than a trip to Colindale? depending on where you live. Generally the Local History Sections of libraries can be quite helpful--perhaps you could let me know how you go on?

I am sure that members would be interested to see the photo of John, if you are willing to post it here.

Good luck with your quest,

Robert

[bethwilkinson]

Hello Steve,

Thanks so much for this useful & interesting information. I'd realised that Pioneers did general infrastructure work, but of course the 'assault pioneer' work would have been absolutely vital and on-going. And unbelievably dangerous. I'm guessing here, but I imagine as a signaller one of my chap's duties would have been to signal to base the position of enemy guns, etc, which would also presumably put him in a very exposed position.

Thanks once again,

Beth

Pioneer battalions were much in demand and actually usually spent much longer in the danger areas than their Infantry counterparts due to this usefulness. They also acted as "Assault Pioneers". Their task was to stand by when a major attack went over, and once the German trench was captured, would dig connecting trenches (known as communicaton trenches) between the old front line and the new one, to enable ammunition, grenades, and other equipment to be brought forward. And, of course, the Germans knew full well where their old trenches and no mans land were so this would usually be done under heavy artillery fire.

Steve.

[David_Underdown]

The other option for no listing in the war diary might be that he was actually attached to 59th divisional signal company after all, perhaps to the section providing signalling support to 177 Brigade (the signal companies had a number of sections, one with Divisional HQ, one with each infantry brigade of the division, and some slightly more variable arrangements for attached artillery etc). Might be worth getting hold of signal company war diary, and maybe brigade HQ diaries - these haven't been digitised yet though

[bethwilkinson]

Hello David,

That's a very interesting suggestion, thank you.

I haven't yet looked at the 2/5th Lincolnshire's War Diary myself, so I've no idea whether his death was mentioned for the entry on April 17th 1918. But I was puzzled by his apparently not being listed on March 22nd (according to another source).

I do intend to visit the National Archives myself soon, so that I can look at the 2/5th's diary myself. Following your excellent suggestion, I've now also found the reference for the 59th Division's Signal Company, so will be able to check that out at the same time. I'm having more trouble locating Brigade HQ diaries, but will persevere!

Thanks again

Beth

The other option for no listing in the war diary might be that he was actually attached to 59th divisional signal company after all, perhaps to the section providing signalling support to 177 Brigade (the signal companies had a number of sections, one with Divisional HQ, one with each infantry brigade of the division, and some slightly more variable arrangements for attached artillery etc). Might be worth getting hold of signal company war diary, and maybe brigade HQ diaries - these haven't been digitised yet though

[David_Underdown]

The war diaries are arranged hierarchically, according to the structure of the army at the time, so the brigade HQ diary should have a piece reference quite close to that for 2/5th Lincs (probably between that you've found for the signal company and that for the battalion). Go to the catalogue ref for the battalion, click "Browse from here" and you should see a list of catalogue refs with arrows that allow you to move back and forth. Go back, and you should see 177 Brigade quite quickly

[bethwilkinson]

Thank you so much David, with your clear instructions I managed to find the reference for the Brigade HQ diary straight away.

I'm now fully prepared for my next trip to the Archives!

Best wishes & thanks again

Beth

The war diaries are arranged hierarchically, according to the structure of the army at the time, so the brigade HQ diary should have a piece reference quite close to that for 2/5th Lincs (probably between that you've found for the signal company and that for the battalion). Go to the catalogue ref for the battalion, click "Browse from here" and you should see a list of catalogue refs with arrows that allow you to move back and forth. Go back, and you should see 177 Brigade quite quickly

[bethwilkinson]

Hello Robert, Dick, Duncan, Steve & David,

If I manage to do this correctly, there should be a photo of 2nd Lieut. John (Jack) Fisher attached. Robert said it might be of interest to members.

On Friday I'm hoping to get to the National Archives to look at some of the war diaries. If I find anything of interest I'll post it here. After that I'll tackle the Hull newspapers.

Thank you all, once again, for your very kind & useful help,

Beth

[Old Owl]

Hi Beth,

Thank you very much for posting the photo. Along with many others, I am always interested to see such photos as they instantly bring a name to life--great photo by the way. It's good to see exactly what his uniform was like in late 1917, his 'pip' is on the shoulder rather than the 'cuff rank' of earlier officers uniforms. I believe that they were moved to the shoulder in order to make officers less conspicuous to the enemy during an attack.

I hope that your visits to TNA and the local papers in Hull are successful. I look forward to your updates.

Best wishes, Robert

[bethwilkinson]

Hi Robert,

I'm glad you liked the photo, I'm very fond of it. He must have splashed out for a professional job - the back shows it's been made out as a postcard.

Thanks for the interesting information about the 'pip' - I didn't realise they had once been on the cuff.

Hopefully I'll have some more updates soon.

Best wishes,

beth

Hi Beth,

Thank you very much for posting the photo. Along with many others, I am always interested to see such photos as they instantly bring a name to life--great photo by the way. It's good to see exactly what his uniform was like in late 1917, his 'pip' is on the shoulder rather than the 'cuff rank' of earlier officers uniforms. I believe that they were moved to the shoulder in order to make officers less conspicuous to the enemy during an attack.

I hope that your visits to TNA and the local papers in Hull are successful. I look forward to your updates.

Best wishes, Robert

[bethwilkinson]

One of my original queries relating to John Fisher was:

"I have read an account based on the 2/5th's War Diary somewhere, relating to a battle on 21st March, 1918. This lists the officers surviving on the morning of the 22nd, including three 2nd Lieutenants, but not John Fisher. Since he evidently did survive, if only to be killed a few weeks later, where was he?"

I visited the National Archives on Friday & read the war diary of the 2/5th Lincolns for the months of March & April 1918. This has provided a partial answer to the above question - at the end of each month there are two lists, one of officers joining the battalion & one of officers killed or wounded. John Fisher is listed as both joining and being killed in April.

So where was he between the end of November 1917 & the end of March 1918?

I followed up a suggestion made by David

"The other option for no listing in the war diary might be that he was actually attached to 59th divisional signal company after all, perhaps to the section providing signalling support to 177 Brigade (the signal companies had a number of sections, one with Divisional HQ, one with each infantry brigade of the division, and some slightly more variable arrangements for attached artillery etc). Might be worth getting hold of signal company war diary, and maybe brigade HQ diaries - these haven't been digitised yet though"

I looked through the war diaries of HQ 177th Brigade, which unfortunately listed very few officers by name, so that couldn't add any new information. I also checked the diary for the 59th Signal Co. R.E. , but again could find no evidence of his attachment to any of their sections. (The only soldiers named were members of the RE).

So sadly, I guess, I'll not find the answer to this part of the jig-saw. Unless anyone else has any other ideas?

Thank you all again,

Beth