claremvflynn@o2.co.uk Posted 26 November , 2011 Share Posted 26 November , 2011 I've recently started looking into my grandad's war record. I never knew him so am starting from scratch. I'm new to all this so please be patient of i ask dumb questions. I know he joined the 25th Battalion Royal Fusiliers Frontiersmen on 22.2.15, embarked for East Africa on 10.4.15, was promoted a couple of times to Sergeant. I think he was wounded in June 16 and discharged due to "Disability caused through active service" on 14.3.17 I've found a letter dated 22 Feb (?) 17 that says "...............the medal of St George, 2nd Class, was conferred upon No 13095 by His Imperial Majesty The Emperor of Russia with the approval of His Majesty the King........". He was "mentioned in dispatch of Lt H.C. (?) Smuts to the Sec War Office 22.11.16 (???? (bit i can't read) Extra 2nd Supplement 82/17 to the London Gazette 6.2.17 I'm interested in what my grandad may have done to earn this medal. Was it because he was injured (I know his leg was amputated) or would it have been for an act or bravery etc. Is there anywhere that i could find more info? His record also says "Wounded ...(bit i can't read) wd25.6.16 x 19404 d/ 29.6.16 I'd be grateful if you could help me understand what this means. Can anyone help? I've attached extracts of the records Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 26 November , 2011 Share Posted 26 November , 2011 Hi Clare, Welcome to the forum. Although I am unable to answer any of your questions directly, there are a couple of members who specialise in the 25th Royal Fusiliers and also the campaign in East Africa, so hopefully one of them will be along soon with some answers to your queries. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 26 November , 2011 Share Posted 26 November , 2011 Hi Clare and welcome to the Forum! Whilst the London Gazette reported awards from foreign governments (e.g. Belgium, France, Serbia, Imperial Russia), it did not usually provide the citations as it does for the British gallantry awards. Your best bet would be to gain access to the relevant Battalion Diaries. I know of one man, John Alexander Sinton VC, who was received an Imperial Russian award, and he served with the Mesopotamia Expeditionary Force. Smuts was, I think, a General with South African forces ... which would fit with service with forces in East Africa. Could you provide your Grandfather's surname and forename? Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claremvflynn@o2.co.uk Posted 26 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2011 Thanks Robert and Nigel I must have been so excited at finding the forum that I forgot to add his name!! He was called Frederick Sidney Flynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 27 November , 2011 Share Posted 27 November , 2011 Hi Clare132 This is the London Gazette page http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29945/supplements/1605 As you can see the page only has a few Officers listed at the start, which is a carry over from the previous page & if you look at the beginning of the Other Ranks listed you will see (12th November, 1916.) Just above the heading "Cross of St George" I have not been able to find out why some gazettes have these notations or what the date represents. I live in Australia so therefore cannot check the files at the National Archives to find out. If you click the "Previous" button you will see the Officers have a different date. This as far as I can see only happens on awards from Russia. The Medal of St George was awarded for Bravery & approx 125 were Gazetted for WW1 for the whole British Commonwealth Forces, so is a very Rare award. Hope this answers your questions. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 27 November , 2011 Share Posted 27 November , 2011 Clare Firstly, welcome to the forum. I believe the Russian award was most likely for the action at Kwa Direma on 24th June 1916 where your Grandad was amongst those wounded. It's too late for a comprehensive answer now (I need some sleep) but I'll be back later. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claremvflynn@o2.co.uk Posted 27 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2011 Thanks Peter, Steve. It's great to put a few more bits of the jigsaw into place. I've been re-reading the copies of grandad's letters and have found one dated 10th Jan 1917 - not sure who it was addressed to. " I.........should esteem it a great favour if sir you would give me any information in reference to my recommendation for the DCM that i was recommended for in East Africa. Having got the order of the St George 2nd class that i have same in print. Before me now out of a South African paper i was told that i had got the DCM in East Africa but never being in a place where where i could see my BoC report i should be very thankful for same as i am waiting admission to Roehampton for a right leg having lost mine in action...." An undated reply says "I regret to inform you that information respecting recommendation for the DCM has been received by this office" My questions are (a) is it likely that incorrect information was published in the newspaper and ( what's a BoC report. My grandad died when my dad was 12. My dad's now deceased but he once told me that his family received a food hamper every Christmas from a Major Dolby and that grandad told him he was mentioned in a book written by him. I've found an electronic copy of a book called "Sketches of the East AFrican Campaign" by a Robert Valentine Dolbey. In the book he says ""Please give me a drop of Johnny Walker before you do my dressing" said my Irish Sergeant who lost his leg in the fight at Kangata" Could this be my grandad, although he wasn't Irish (he was born in York) or maybe grandad read the book and told a little fib to his son. How would i find if my grandad and a Major Dolbey served together. Was it a common thing for officers to remember their sergeant's at Christmas? Sorry if this is going outside the bounds of this forum. I originally wrote about a medal but people have been so helpful i thought I 'd try my luck again. Should i post these on another forum instead? Thanks so much Clare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 27 November , 2011 Share Posted 27 November , 2011 Clare Unfortunately the 25th Battalion Royal Fusiliers war diary makes no mention of Frederick Sidney Flynn or his award of the Medal of St. George so we're left with a bit of guesswork as to why it was awarded. The 25th Battalion had four Russian awards listed in the London Gazette #29945 of 15th February 1917. Three of these were awarded on the back of the award of a Distinguished Conduct Medal (two of which were confirmed for the action at Kwa Direma) whilst Frederick's was the 'odd one out’ being awarded after a Mention in Despatches although it does appear from his records that he felt he had been recommended for a DCM. The Mention in Despatches relates to the Despatch of Lieutenant-General J. C. Smuts dated 27th October 1916 and covers the period from 21st March 1916. The only action of significance that the 25th Battalion were involved in during that period was the action at Kwa Direma on the 24th June 1916, this was the action where Frederick was wounded. The Battalion war diary states: "24/6/16 7 hrs. Crossed LUKIGERO RIVER at 7 am. Firing ahead 1 mile or more as if of a small Piquet being driven in. Marched till noon along right bank of Lukigero River. 12.30 hrs. Opposition on ridge overlooking valley west of Kwedirema Hill. Obtained permission from General Hoskins to attack at once. Sent forward three Coys. total strength about 150 men, Machine Guns & one Coy. in reserve. On going forward found Cashmires preparing to attack, told their O.C. would support. Cashmires advanced, they met with heavy rifle fire, also from three or four machine guns & Pom pom. They hesitated under crest of ridge, whereupon my three leading Companies fixed bayonets, swept through the Cashmires, who immediately followed. Occupied ridge, capturing two machine guns & Pom pom. Enemy casualties on hill 3 whites killed 1 wounded, about 30 Askaris killed. Later on in bush we found more dead. Several whites & a number of Askaris surrendered to the General. My casualties were 3 killed, 15 wounded. 2 hrs. All firing ceased. Camped on ridge." As the Medal of St. George was a bravery award and with the details I’ve stated above, I believe Frederick’s Russian award was for this action. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 28 November , 2011 Share Posted 28 November , 2011 My questions are (a) is it likely that incorrect information was published in the newspaper and ( what's a BoC report. Clare My reading of the letters in the service record are that the East African paper carried the report that Frederick had been awarded the Medal of St. George. He may also have been recommended for the DCM, the award of which, as I commented in my previous post, seemed to pre-date the Russian awards but from what is written in his letters I don't believe the East African papers actually state he was awarded the DCM. It would appear that if he was recommended for the DCM by his BOC (Battalion Officer Commanding, I believe) then this was turned down by higher authorities, for whatever reason, and 'relegated' to a Mention in Despatches. I have a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I have a newspaper report, somewhere, for Frederick. I'll have a look later and get back. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claremvflynn@o2.co.uk Posted 28 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 November , 2011 Steve thanks so much for all this information. I really do appreciate it, especially as Im a novice at all this. This is going to display my real ignorance, but why would the Russians have been awarding my grandad a medal for bravery? Were there Russians fighting alongside the 25th? I think I've got a lot of homework to do!! Look forward to hearing if you have got a newspaper report Thanks again Clare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 29 November , 2011 Share Posted 29 November , 2011 This is going to display my real ignorance, but why would the Russians have been awarding my grandad a medal for bravery? Were there Russians fighting alongside the 25th? Clare Don't worry about asking questions, we all have to start somewhere No, there weren't any Russians fighting alongside the 25th. Medals aren't really my thing and I don't know if they all did it, but most of the allied nations issued a number of their own awards to the other nations regardless of whether they had any troops in that particular theatre or not. I knew I had something about Frederick from a newspaper but it wasn't quite what I was thinking of. It transpires it was a letter he sent to the Manchester Guardian of November 26th 1929 which I've attached. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claremvflynn@o2.co.uk Posted 29 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2011 Cheers Steve. A fab memory you must have to remember that you had this cutting. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 29 November , 2011 Share Posted 29 November , 2011 Clare No problem, glad to be of some help. Frederick was an old soldier having previously served with the King's Royal Rifle Corps according to his service record that's survived. You've obviously found his service record for the 25th Battalion Royal Fusiliers but are you aware that he had previously enlisted into the East Lancashire Regiment (Service No. 17108) in November 1914? He was discharged after 40 days as "Not likely to become an efficient soldier". Those papers are also available on Ancestry. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 Hello Clare, Did your relative receive the Russian Medal of St George or the St George Cross? The Medal of St George, 29mm dia, came in 4 classes and carried (on the reverse) the Russian inscription 'For Bravery' The Cross of St George (32mm) also came in 4 classes and was awarded for extreme bravery in the face of the enemy. To receive this award recommendation had to be made by a senior officer. Every cross was numbered (or should have been). In each case, the award was suspended from the St George ribbon (orange moire with three equally spaced black stripes). Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 Rob Frederick was awarded the Medal of St. George, 2nd Class. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 Thanks Steve. The St George Medal, 2nd Class, was a 29mm gold medal and, seemingly, quite rare. Hoping this little bit of info will prove to be of some help to Clare. Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 Rob Any idea what difference the Class made? A couple of other Frontiersmen were awarded the Medal of St. George 3rd Class and a third the Cross of St. George 4th Class. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 Steve, Medal of St George (up to 1913 it was known as the Medal for Bravery):- 1st and 2nd Class medals were gold. The former was suspended from a ribbon with a bow, the latter without. 3rd and 4th Class were silver. Ribbons ditto. It appears these medals were awarded on the basis of 'degree of bravery'. UK awards were usually suspended from a small ring attached to the ribbon. Russians use the metal plate (as a backing to the ribbon). The Medal of St George appears to be a superior award to that of the Medal for Zeal, but the latter seems to command higher prices these days! St George Cross:- These were awarded for 'extreme bravery in the face of the enemy' Classes as above described. Each was numbered and these awards were well documented (as I have copies of documents for one or two issued during the Russian Civil War period). Documents include name and rank, date and description of action. These medals are highly prized and were not issued as freely as some might believe. Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 Rob Many thanks for that, makes Frederick's award the more interesting. The two 3rd Class awards were also awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal, Frederick 'only' got a Mention in Despatches so I wonder if he was awarded the 2nd Class Medal as some sort of compensation? Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 8 July , 2022 Share Posted 8 July , 2022 It's been a long time since this thread was first posted so I don't know if this will alert Clare @claremvflynn@o2.co.uk but I'll post it here anyway as I've finally come across a citation for the award of #13095 Sgt. Frederick Sydney Flynn's Medal of St. George 2nd Class. Advanced Routine Orders by Lieutenant-General The Hon. J. C. Smuts, Commander-in-Chief, East African Forces, Morogoro 12th November 1916 record a number of Russian awards, amongst which is Frederick's... Medal of St. George, 2nd Class No. 13095, Serjeant Frederick Sydney Flynn, 25th (Ser.) Bn., Royal Fusiliers. On the 24th June, 1916, this N.C.O. led his men with much gallantry, and headed the bayonet charge until he was severely wounded. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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