Railway personnel on the Western Front

[hillgorilla]

Hi,

For many years I have been trying to find out what my family did during the Great War. Whilst searching through old letters from my Great uncle, i have found out that my Great Great Grandfather (Frederick William Weeks) served as a Railway Superintendant on the Western Front. My Great Uncle (now deceased) mentions being told that Frederick served around Bethune. Are there any records relating to this role. I have tried looking at Medal Rolls with no success.

[centurion]

Over 24,000 railway men were attached to the Railway Operating Division (ROD) Royal Engineers. Most were in France although a sizeable contingent went to Egypt. In addition some 2,000 British civilian railwaymen were also used by ROD in France. ROD primarily operated what was left in Allied hands of the French Nord system. A significant proportion of ROD men came from the LNWR

[Ron Clifton]

Hello hillgorilla

There are War Diaries for many units of the RE Raliways section in the National Archives at Kew, in files WO95/4050 to 4057, and for Australian and Canadian railway units in WO95/4060 to 4071. There is also this file:

WO 95/3976B Headquarters Branches and Services: DIRECTOR OF RAILWAYS 1914 OCT. 1916 JULY

17th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers (NER Pioneers) was raised from employees of the North Eastern Railway (later part of the LNER of the "big four"). The battalion spent some months working on railways under GHQ.

Ron

[centurion]

I suspect that Hillgorilla's ancestor won't be there as these are construction units or narrow gauge operating companies.

The British Army's railway troops dealing with standard gauge under the Director General of Transportation were divided into three parts. These were Construction, Operations and Traffic.

Construction reported up to to a Chief Railway Construction Engineer (CRCE) at GCHQ. Under him he had Railway Construction Engineers (RCE) one per army plus one for lines of communication. Each RCE had Railway Construction Companies made up of skilled engineers and backed up with units/detachmments from various labour corps (eg The Chinese Labour Corps), Labour Battalions, Pioneers etc for unskilled work. They carried out such tasks as repair of the permanent way, laying new track (eg spurs for railway guns, sidings), station buildings, bridges etc etc. They worked up to within 5 miles of the front line. They also had a special company per RCE for railway signalling and an L company for telegraphs (eventually taken over by ROD).

Operations were the Railway Operations Division (ROD). They were responsible for supplying Locomotives, Drivers, Firemen, Cleaners, Shunters, Yard Masters, Station Masters etc. All these worked on lines completely under British Army control and those which also carried French Civilian and Military traffic as well. Given his working title Hillgorilla's ancestor is likely to have fallen into ROD. Bethune was a very important communications hub served by the mainline from Lille and Calais (as well as canals) and from which radiated narrow gauge lines to various parts of the front. There was an army headquarters there as well as some large hospitals.

Traffic The Railway Traffic Establishment was the link between the combat troops and the British and French railway organisations. They dealt with demands for transport and scheduled the availability and routing of trains. Each army had a Railway Traffic HQ which were reported to by Railway Traffic Officers. They organised the loading and unloading of men and supplies (including for example arranging double decker buses at Bethune to ferry men on to their units) and liaised with both ROD and the French railway authorities.

[grantowi]

Where did Frederick live pre the War - might give an indication which Railway he worked for

Grant

[centurion]

Where did Frederick live pre the War - might give an indication which Railway he worked for

Grant

The line that supplied the biggest number of men and Locos to ROD was the LNWR followed by the Midland so there would be a good chance that he was from one of these.

There is a complication - not all men who went into ROD went into the army (although most did). ROD also used some civilians (mainly it would seem men past normal recruitment age but who had special skills and/or experience). A Railway Superintendent could well fall into this category.

[grantowi]

The line that supplied the biggest number of men and Locos to ROD was the LNWR followed by the Midland so there would be a good chance that he was from one of these.

With a location it will narrow down the "chance" element

GWR also sent men and I would assume that the others did as well

The location of where he was living would give an indication as to which railway he worked for and would assist in searching for him and where he was operating, as well as opening up the amount of records that could be searched, ie the GWR has some records of it's workers available in Chippenham.

Grant

[hillgorilla]

Where did Frederick live pre the War - might give an indication which Railway he worked for

Grant

Hi,

He lived in Battersea, and worked on the railway. Thank you for all your replies.

[Nepper]

Assuming he lived local to his work that makes it more probable he worked for the LSWR or the LBSCR.

[grantowi]

In 1911 census,There is a likley canidate, he's a Locomotive Foreman, Railway. (no railway listed)

But he's living in Wandsworth, married to Ann - Elizabeth with two Daughters, Doris and Ethel

There is a chap in Battersea, but he's born in 1898 and still at Polytecnic

Grant

[centurion]

Although almost all railway companies contributed to ROD the bulk of the effort appears to have been borne by LNWR, Midland and GWR. Based on the supply of locos wagons and coaches (and one assumes that men were supplied in similar proportions - figures for the LNWR support this) LSWR and LBSCR were amongst the smallest contributors.

A railway superintendent was fairly high up the management of a railway company, indeed ROD was initially commanded by a Midland Railway superintendent with the rank of Lt Col.

[hillgorilla]

In 1911 census,There is a likley canidate, he's a Locomotive Foreman, Railway. (no railway listed)

But he's living in Wandsworth, married to Ann - Elizabeth with two Daughters, Doris and Ethel

There is a chap in Battersea, but he's born in 1898 and still at Polytecnic

Grant

Hi,

He's the one living in Wandsworth, Doris and Ethel are my Great Great Aunts. I remember meeting Doris in the 1980s. Ann was his second wife.His first wife having died.

[Nepper]

A look at the railway employment records on Ancestry shows several Frederick Weeks in South London. None of them look great possibilities because they are either in the wrong department e.g. signalling, shunters or where they are in the traffic department they are too junior to make Loco Foreman by 1911. The LBSCR might reward closer study as a lot of it's records do seem to survive.

[hillgorilla]

I didn't realise that there are railway records online, shall have to pay the local library a visit.

[Nepper]

I didn't realise that there are railway records online, shall have to pay the local library a visit.

Ancestry seem to have records for the GC, GW, LNE, LMS, Mid, LNW, LSW, LBSC, MS&L and LC&D - I don't know how complete the records are though.

Nigel

[grantowi]

Frederick had a brother called Henry J (b 1862, Woolwich) who was a Fireman in 1891 census when Frederick was an Engine driver

Frederick also has a son called William G (b 1881, Wandsworth) who in 1911 census worked as a Brakesman on L.C.C (London City Council ?) Tramways

Been running back and forth through the census's looking for a railway company, but with no luck

Grant

Ps to access the records on ancestry you will need the premium or worldwide sub

[centurion]

In 1911 census,There is a likley canidate, he's a Locomotive Foreman, Railway. (no railway listed)

But he's living in Wandsworth, married to Ann - Elizabeth with two Daughters, Doris and Ethel

There is a chap in Battersea, but he's born in 1898 and still at Polytecnic

Grant

Depending on the company structure a Locomotive Foreman's next grade up would be Assistant Railway Superintendent - which fits

[hillgorilla]

Frederick had a brother called Henry J (b 1862, Woolwich) who was a Fireman in 1891 census when Frederick was an Engine driver

Frederick also has a son called William G (b 1881, Wandsworth) who in 1911 census worked as a Brakesman on L.C.C (London City Council ?) Tramways

Been running back and forth through the census's looking for a railway company, but with no luck

Grant

Ps to access the records on ancestry you will need the premium or worldwide sub

Thank you for the information. I've been trying to find out info on William for a while now. I wonder what he did in the Great War? That is another avenue of search for me.

[hillgorilla]

Depending on the company structure a Locomotive Foreman's next grade up would be Assistant Railway Superintendent - which fits

Thank you for the information. Despite quite a bulk of my ancestors having worked on the railway, I have little understanding of the grading of jobs on the railway, and could not understand how a man who worked on the railway could go to being a superintendent on the Western Front.

[Terry_Reeves]

hillgorrilla

I have very severe doubts that your man was a railway superintendent with the ROD. First, there was no appointment with this title and even if there were, the holder would have to have been a commissioned rank and not a civilian one. With regard to civilians in the ROD mentioned above, the majority of these were platelayers of which there were some 12 companies. There is just one Frederick William Weeks RE with a medal index card and he an was acting Sergeant . I can't say for a fact that this is your man, but I would I think he is your best bet. Please bear in mind that the relative who gave you the information may have used the word "superintendent" meaning that he was someone in charge rather than someone with a specific military appointment.

TR

[centurion]

hillgorrilla

I have very severe doubts that your man was a railway superintendent with the ROD. First, there was no appointment with this title and even if there were, the holder would have to have been a commissioned rank and not a civilian one. With regard to civilians in the ROD mentioned above, the majority of these were platelayers of which there were some 12 companies. There is just one Frederick William Weeks RE with a medal index card and he an was acting Sergeant . I can't say for a fact that this is your man, but I would I think he is your best bet. Please bear in mind that the relative who gave you the information may have used the word "superintendent" meaning that he was someone in charge rather than someone with a specific military appointment.

TR

The function existed and would have been carried out by a Deputy Assistant Director of Railway Transport. As ROD were not permitted to enlist many older men (and then only Locomotive Foremen up to 45) some senior (in all senses) men were taken on as contractors. They were given an honorary commission in an obscure staff position which took care of the social niceties (they could join the officers' mess etc) but would mean that they didn't have an MIC and the like. I'm not saying that Hillgorilla's man definitely fell into this category but that one should not dismiss the idea out of hand. I shall dig some more.

[hillgorilla]

The function existed and would have been carried out by a Deputy Assistant Director of Railway Transport. As ROD were not permitted to enlist many older men (and then only Locomotive Foremen up to 45) some senior (in all senses) men were taken on as contractors. They were given an honorary commission in an obscure staff position which took care of the social niceties (they could join the officers' mess etc) but would mean that they didn't have an MIC and the like. I'm not saying that Hillgorilla's man definitely fell into this category but that one should not dismiss the idea out of hand. I shall dig some more.

This would make sense. At the time of the Great War, he was what could be termed as an older man. He was born in 1858. He however lived a long life and did not die until 1944. I did not realise that there are men who went to the Western Front as contractors.

[hillgorilla]

Would they have acting rank? If so I have just had a google and found an Acting Lieutenant Frederick William Weeks RNR who won the Albert Medal 2nd Class in 1917, could this be him, or would the not have had a roll in the railway.

[centurion]

This would make sense. At the time of the Great War, he was what could be termed as an older man. He was born in 1858. He however lived a long life and did not die until 1944. I did not realise that there are men who went to the Western Front as contractors.

They were not allowed within five miles of the front line (ie within an area where shell fire was likely) Until March 1918 he could have worked in Bethune under this rule

At that age he would not have been allowed to enlist in the RE so if he was working on the railway in France he would have had to have been in a civilian capacity. I believe ROD had a limit of 60 years old for this.

[centurion]

Would they have acting rank? If so I have just had a google and found an Acting Lieutenant Frederick William Weeks RNR who won the Albert Medal 2nd Class in 1917, could this be him, or would the not have had a roll in the railway.

RNR officers usually had merchant seaman backgrounds. Ironically the RNR may well have had some officers in their late 50s or older - usually with a role connected with convoys.

BTW acting and honoury commissions are two different things. The latter conferred no substantive rank and was a device to ensure that the man could join the mess and was granted the usual perquisites that an officer would expect. Today they'd merely give him a "civilian with officer status".