Wikipedia

[Northern Soul]

Having hit upon (what I considered to be) a brainwave, as to how I could make available the fruits of my war memorial researches to anyone interested, I decided to create a page on Wikipedia entitled "Ulverston War Memorial"; this was hopefully to be the first of many, covering all of the memorials in south Cumbria.

After figuring out how to use Wikipedia and laboriously typing all the names and details in I sent the page off for approval by one of the validation team, prior to it going "live".

After then responding to endless editorial rejections (prompting me to insert references so the information could be validated) I finally found this message when I logged on this morning;

"wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not an indiscriminate collection of data"

Words fail me!

Now, from a website that provides such useful facts as to what Justin Bieber eats for breakfast, amongst other arcane nuggets of information, I find myself wondering just what, exactly, is indiscriminate about listing the details of men commemorated on a town's war memorial and linking it to the wiki page about Ulverston?

Does anyone else have such tales to relate, or can they suggest an alternative? I'm not that computer literate so creating my own web page is a bit of a non-starter at the moment (I wouldn't even know where to begin).

Jimmy Wales always seems to be soliciting donations for the running of Wikipedia. I'm afraid my pockets are empty, Jim !

[Ian C]

Hi

In actual fact having your own website is extremely easy, and as an example of how easy it is, I am a complete idiot when it comes to computers but I have two websites, and they don't cost me a penny.

The address' for my sites are at the bottom of this, have a look and if you fancy having a go, then down at the bottom left hand side of the home page there is a tab which says 'create a free website' click on that and off you go! Of course you can pay for extra's but I haven't found the need, the free option allows you to set up 20 individual pages on the website and so far I have not come across any limit to the amount of information you can put on each individual page. When you are set up you can then link it to search engines such as Google etc and you can probably even get it linked to the wiki page about Ulverston, if you really want to.

I came across freewebs when another member on here put up a link to their website on the forum and that was what they used, I played around on it for a couple of days and as they say 'I have never looked back' it really is easy.

Regards

IanC

[John_Hartley]

Some time after I'd finished my Stockport memorials research (and established my own website), I also thought it useful to use Wikipedia. So I added a link to the website on the various "suburb pages" for the Borough that were on Wiki, as an "external link". That was deemed to be unacceptable to them - although they were unable to explain their reasons. I was considerably irritated by the attitude of the high-handed to&&ers involved.

[Northern Soul]

Hi

In actual fact having your own website is extremely easy, and as an example of how easy it is, I am a complete idiot when it comes to computers but I have two websites, and they don't cost me a penny.

The address' for my sites are at the bottom of this, have a look and if you fancy having a go, then down at the bottom left hand side of the home page there is a tab which says 'create a free website' click on that and off you go! Of course you can pay for extra's but I haven't found the need, the free option allows you to set up 20 individual pages on the website and so far I have not come across any limit to the amount of information you can put on each individual page. When you are set up you can then link it to search engines such as Google etc and you can probably even get it linked to the wiki page about Ulverston, if you really want to.

I came across freewebs when another member on here put up a link to their website on the forum and that was what they used, I played around on it for a couple of days and as they say 'I have never looked back' it really is easy.

Regards

IanC

Many thanks for that, Ian. I shall have a good look and report back in due course. On the face of it, it sounds like just what I am looking for. 20 pages should be more than enough because some of the memorials can be collected together into dedicated "localities." Having spent many years and countless hours compiling the information I really do want to make it readily accessible to anyone who is interested, and, although it may sound immodest, I want to try and mitigate against possible identification errors being made by other people who already have or are intending to research them in the future, if you get get my drift. I have come across instances of other local (to me) researchers who have done some work on a memorial - and published it - and they have misidentifed some of the names.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[Northern Soul]

Some time after I'd finished my Stockport memorials research (and established my own website), I also thought it useful to use Wikipedia. So I added a link to the website on the various "suburb pages" for the Borough that were on Wiki, as an "external link". That was deemed to be unacceptable to them - although they were unable to explain their reasons. I was considerably irritated by the attitude of the high-handed to&&ers involved.

Well, I'm not even going to argue with them because I will be fighting a losing battle and I've got other things to worry about. At the other end of the Wikipedia Internet there is probably some computer nerd with a minimal capacity for lateral thinking, and for whom commonsense arguments are a strange country. "To&&ers" is a very apt description; I had thought of several words in a similar vein myself.

I'll just bite the bullet and have a go at setting up my own web page. It'll probably end up looking like the dog's dinner at first but no doubt I'll be able to call upon some helpful criticism from the cognescention here

[Heid the Ba]

This is one of the problems with wiki, you are always at the mercy of self appointed admins who decide what is worthy of a page; Justin Beiber's breakfast generates page views and revenue, war memorials do not.

[Nepper]

As someone who spends probably too much time on Wikipedia, I do know my way round it and I have to ask, before starting did you read and understand the core wikipedia policies about notability, verifiability and work not being original research? They do cause difficulties if you don't understand what they are intended for. But in a nutshell Notability is about answering the question "Has the topic gained sufficiently significant attention by the world at large and over a period of time?" Verifiability is about establishing that what you have written isn't just something you made up; and No Original Research is that Wikipedia is not a place to promote new ideas but reflects already published information i.e. it's a secondary source of information not a primary source.

For a war memorial - the notability question is about the memorial itself not the names commemorated on it. for example it it were a listed structure then it would be in wikipedia terms notable, the Cenotaph in Whitehall is notable because it is a focus point for national rememberance. If you can get over that point then there's no arguement about there being an article. Hence Justin Beiber is (sadly) notable, but what he has for breakfast isn't and frankly is the sort of less than trivial rubbish that should be edited out. Notability stops at should there be an article not what should be in the article - there are other guidelines for that.

The other problem with articles on war memorials is that " Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements" - that's a quote from the relevant policy. So even if you can get over the notability topic you're unlikely to get away with listing all the names on the memorial and any biographical details about them unless they already 'qualify' for their own article so a VC winner who is commemorated on a war memorial, you could write; "Among the names commemorated on the memorial is Pte J Bloggs VC" and that would be fine. It sounds a harsh policy and there is no disrespect meant by it, there are countless arguements about why the Justin Beibers of this world are inherently notable but holders of the MM aren't but that's the nature of a collaborative work.

As a wikipedia editor I can only apologise for the way some of you appear to have been treated as short, brusque, unexplained messages don't help anyone but there is a thriving group of wikipedia editors dedicated to military history who will try and help anyone out who wants to try.

The admins aren't self appointed but elected in a process open to all wikipedia editors and wikipedia doens't carry advertising so page views don't generate revenue. Wikipedia isn't perfect, a long way from it - the rules around image copyright for one, being a nightmare to obey and ensure the copyright police don't bite but within it's self imposed limitations it tries it's best.

Nigel

[kenneth505]

Have to agree w/Nigel P above, Wikipedia provides useful information so much more then it fails. Simply because one entry or another is denied or because much of what it does have doesn't interest you is no reason to assert the whole process has failed. What the Wikipedia people are achieving is notable on a global scale with results we can't yet foresee. What they do is much harder then it looks.

In addition to the free webtools already mentioned what would the policy of this forum be if a member simply created a thread in the appropriate section and continued to make new posts to it as they developed more information? One possible downside to it would be that others may be tempted to add their input. If simply getting the info posted were the objective that seems like a fairly quick and accessible way to do it.

[Northern Soul]

I have to say I find the last two posts both imperious and patronising in their tone. Look, if Wikipedia is your be all and end all then get on with it; I don't have a problem with that. What I do take issue with is this:

Why, if the material I submitted did not meet the acceptance criteria from the word "go!", was I encouraged (not just once, but several times, mind) to spend the best part of a day editing and re-editing it all to incorporate references etc. when the editor could have just stated right at the beginning of the editorial process that it wasn't suitable for inclusion - instead of leaving it until the end.

Now, where I come from that's called 'taking the pi$$' - in spades!, if you want a bridge analogy. Maybe you have a different phrase for it in Santa Fe? You can advance whatever defence of Wikipedia and its editors you want - after having been on the receiving end of that sort of time wasting you'll be polishing a turd as far as I'm concerned.

[Northern Soul]

On a lighter note, I now have a dedicated website thanks to Ian's suggestion. It wasn't anywhere near as difficult as I thought it would be although I'm still learning and its a bit messy in places.

If anyone bothers to take a peek (see the link in my signature) then apologies for the adverts that flash up.

Oh, and if you're looking for for the latest goss on whether young Justin has started shaving yet, or his ba!!s have dropped.....don't bother clicking. The Wiki boyz'll have that well covered.

[Ian C]

Nice one Andy

I've had a quick look just now and will have a proper look in the week when I have the house to myself in the mornings. The adverts are a bit of a nuisance, but hey, the sites free!!

Regards IanC

PS. I told you that if I could do then so could you.

[grantowi]

Andy,

Site looks very good, and thats after only a few hours work.

Missed the link to wiki though, need to see what Justin is having for his brekki tomorrow

Grant

[Northern Soul]

Ian/Grant,

Thanks for the support.

Ian, a quick question - how do I link to Google/Bing etc.? I've looked all over on the site and can't figure how to do it. Any advice appreciated.

Cheers.

Andy.

[Nepper]

Andy

regardless of our differing opinions about wikipedia, I think your site is looking good straight from the box. There's a link on google http://www.googleguide.com/add_url.html on how to get your URL noticed by them.

On your site, it might be my browser (Firefox 7.0.1) the Ulverston page formatting seems to go amiss part way down. After the second world war names - Sgt Stanley Wilson being the last - the page background disappears and there is a very long white space before a list of First World War names starting with Private William Gibson and ending with Thomas Woodward. The only other thing is your email addfress on the home page? is this your principal email address or a spare? I only ask because often spammers pick email addresses off websites and you might find yourself being bombarded with viagra adverts (or even Justin's breakfast menu) and if this is your main email address you might find it tiresome to deal with.

Nigel

[trajan]

I think your site is looking good straight from the box. ... often spammers pick email addresses off websites and you might find yourself being bombarded with viagra adverts (or even Justin's breakfast menu) ... Nigel

Agreed with both points! I

BTW, I have vaguely heard of this Justin (as a learned counsel might say before a Justice), and odds on that I would probably rather hear about his breakfast than getting more Viagra (or 'Dear Friend') mesages...

Trajan

[Hywyn]

A potentialy ring-dinger of a flamewar nicely defused. Well played done everyone.

Hywyn

[Northern Soul]

Thanks for all the kind comments.

Don't worry, Nigel,. It's not your browser; it's junk from where I was trying to dump large amounts of unformatted text onto the page, and it needs deleting. I thought I'd got most of it. I did say it was a bit messy in places.........