8th and 9th Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers

[RMF9BN]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum and glad I've found it as there seems to be some very knowledgeable people on here that may be able to help me. I am trying to find out as much information as possible for Private John Desmond 5465 Royal Munster Fusiliers, who died on 10 September 1916. I suppose I'd better start with what I've found out so far. According to the 1911 census John was the eldest son of Ellen and Daniel Desmond of St.Marys and St.Anns parish Cork. I am married to his grand niece and I knew his sister well, she being my wifes grandmother, often having a cigarette and a cup of tea with her while she told me of her family. She was born after John died so did not know him at all. Due to a fire at the family home all photos and documentation were destroyed, so all that remained down through the years were family stories that obviously changed with time. I decided to see if I could find out more and came across J Desmond 5465 on the CWGC web site. He was listed as having died on the 10/9/1916 while serving with the 8bn RMF and is buried at Mt Houn Military Cemetary outside Le Treport north of Dieppe.

I had two problems with this information, one, why was a Corkman listed in the 8bn which was predominently a Limerick battalion, and two, where did he receive the injuries that resulted in his death. With a bit of research I have discovered that John enlisted in Cork, although I am not sure when. I believe that therefore John had originally enlisted in the 9th Bn RMF which was predominently a Cork battalion. The 9th Bn left Ireland for Aldershot for further training in November 1915 and sailed to France on the 29th December 1915 where they rotated with the 8bn on the Loos salient. By May 1916 the 1st, 2nd and 8bn were depleted in numbers and therefore the 9th Bn was disbanded and its officers and men were reposted to those depleted battalions. Twelve officers and two hundred men of the 9th were posted to the 8th Bn. John Desmond was probably one of those men.

I have looked at engagements on the 9th September and this is when the Battle of Ginchy took place, but I do not think that he was wounded in this battle because he is buried in Le Treport which is 124 miles away from where the battle took place and if wounded on the 9th I do not think it would have been possible to have transported John to a miliarty hospital in Le Treport in that time frame. I looked furth back to the previous engagement and in my opinion it is more likely that he was wounded sometime between the 3rd and 6th of September at the Battle of Guillemont, and then transported to the military hospital in Le Treport where he died from his wounds. As the cemetary adjoining the hospital was full he was buried at the newer cemetary at Mt Houn.

John's Medal index card shows that he was awarded the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, but it seems that his family never received them as in the remarks section is written "Retd(1742 KR .1912) 8153/Adt", which suggests that the medals were returned undeliverable, but at the same time it indicates returned for adjustment but with no reference to the medals ever being re-issued. I would also be grateful if someone could let me know if he should have been awarded the 14-15 Star as he was in the theatre of war, although only for two days, before the cut off date of 31 December 1915, and if there is any way of correcting this ommision.

My main questions are as follows:

Can anyone give me any information regarding the recruitment locations for the RMF in Cork?,

Are battalion diarys available for the 9th bn up to its disbandment and for the 8th bn from May 1916 to the end of September 1916?

In light of the fact that the family never received his awards, is it possible to now make a claim for the medals and if so where and how can this be done?

Do you think that John should have been awarded the 14-15 Star in light of the information above?

Does anyone know of any surviving photographs of the 9th Bn?

And finally if anyone can give me any further piece information, no matter how small, I would be very grateful.

A bit of a long winded post I know but I felt that I had to provide as much information as I can if I am to hopefully find out anything alse. Thanks for taking the time to read this and if any of you feel that I should post this in another part of the forum please let me know. Also if there are any other avenues that I can try to find out more but have not mentioned above, I'd be delighted of a point in the right direction.

[tipperary]

Hi there it is no longer possible to claim medals from WW1.In relation to his wounding i read this only this evening.

significant losses, which were often the Battalion's best soldiers. The Battalion left with the 16th ( Irish ) Division for the Somme sector on the 30 August 1916. Its area of operation was to the front of Guillemont and Ginchy. It was part of the assault which took Guillemont on the 3rd September along with the Connaught Rangers. After the initial attack on Ginchy failed, it was left open to counter attack, then withdrawn to recover from its losses. It returned on the 7th September with 200 men for the next attack on Ginchy. With inadequate cover, by the 9th September, it was inflicted with so many casualties that they were unable to bury their dead. The other battalions of the 16th ( Irish ) Division captured Ginchy. It was a great achievement by the Irishmen.

Does the 29th december date appear on his mic? john

[RMF9BN]

Hi there it is no longer possible to claim medals from WW1.In relation to his wounding i read this only this evening.

significant losses, which were often the Battalion's best soldiers. The Battalion left with the 16th ( Irish ) Division for the Somme sector on the 30 August 1916. Its area of operation was to the front of Guillemont and Ginchy. It was part of the assault which took Guillemont on the 3rd September along with the Connaught Rangers. After the initial attack on Ginchy failed, it was left open to counter attack, then withdrawn to recover from its losses. It returned on the 7th September with 200 men for the next attack on Ginchy. With inadequate cover, by the 9th September, it was inflicted with so many casualties that they were unable to bury their dead. The other battalions of the 16th ( Irish ) Division captured Ginchy. It was a great achievement by the Irishmen.

Does the 29th december date appear on his mic? john

Hi John and thank you for the reply. Its a pity that the medals are no longer obtainable. The 29th December does not appear on his mic, infact no date appears on the mic at all. The 29th December is the date on which the 9th sailed to France, the 8th had sailed on the 19th December. i read this information on a couple of different sites that I came across. I have asked someone in the UK to check the medal roll for me and if that returns even a little bit more information it would be great. I have come across the paragraph that you posted above and it does give some insight to the battle, I've even found maps before the battle and a later map showing a battle scarred landscape.

Do you know if a War Diary is in existence any where for the 9bn and the 8bn? Thanks, Damien.

[archangel9]

War Diaries are at TNA though not available online -

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2241883&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CMUNSTER&accessmethod=0

Item reference WO 95/1971

Scope and content 8 Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

Covering dates 1915 Dec. - 1916 Nov.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2241899&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CMUNSTER&accessmethod=0

Item reference WO 95/1975

Scope and content 9 Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

Covering dates 1915 Dec. - 1916 May

John

[archangel9]

Damien,

If he arrived in France on 29th December 1915 then yes he was entitled to the 1914-15 Star. But is it not also possible that he arrived after that date? With a draft to either battalion in 1916?

John

[tipperary]

Hi Damien the chances are with no date on mic he did not land till after 1/1/16.After that date the date of entry to theatre was no longer put on mic's.All it needed was the battalion to be split in half whilst traveling with the second half sailing a day later you are only playing with two days or as john above has said he could have arrived as part of a draft at any time after that.I think and i am not sure of it but it would be the battalion who would supply the names and dates for the making up of the rolls.john

[RMF9BN]

Thanks again for the replies lads. The links to the TNA will be very helpful and I'll try and get some more info when I decide which copies I need. John, as I'm new to this, can you explain how a draft would have worked and how a soldier would have done his training and then went to a particular battallion if that battallion had already left and were in position in France. If I understand you correctly, he could have arrived at any time with his battallion. If that is the case is there anywhere I could search to see when he enlisted? Thanks again and keep the ideas coming its a great help.

[tipperary]

Hi Damien a draft would be usually men needed to bring a unit up to strength, Quite often drafts would be made up of men coming out from the units home based training battalion and or men returning after illness or wounds.You will read in diarys of an officer and a draft of so many men joined today the officer would probably be named.There was actually officers who's specific job it was to bring drafts across to france these were known as conducting officers.Someone with a lot more knowledge than i will probably fill in more on that for you.Later in the war chances are that drafts would not be made up with men from a particular unit they would be sent to who ever needed them at the time.

I trust that his service papers are not avaiable in that you dont know when he joined if you can find a man with a number close to your man whose papers survive it would probably give you a reasonable date of enlistment.Again some on the forum may be able to pinpoint that for you. john

[tipperary]

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/10/royal-munster-fusiliers-1st-2nd.html

Hi damien have a peep at the link above help you work out when service number issued started off at 1 again in 1914 for men joining for duration only, numbers in the 4000's were being issued in march 1915 i would hazard a guess that john was joining

maybe june/julyish of 15 at the earliest if that was right him being part of a draft of replacements post jan 16 looks likely.john

[archangel9]

Damien,

John has explained the draft very well. Also as he suggests if you can find men with numbers near to 5465 you might get an idea of his enlistment date. If you have Ancestry the new Silver War Badge collection would probably be the best place to look.

e.g. 5477 Michael Buckley enlisted 23/06/1915.

John

[RMF]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum and glad I've found it as there seems to be some very knowledgeable people on here that may be able to help me. I am trying to find out as much information as possible for Private John Desmond 5465 Royal Munster Fusiliers, who died on 10 September 1916. I suppose I'd better start with what I've found out so far. According to the 1911 census John was the eldest son of Ellen and Daniel Desmond of St.Marys and St.Anns parish Cork. I am married to his grand niece and I knew his sister well, she being my wifes grandmother, often having a cigarette and a cup of tea with her while she told me of her family. She was born after John died so did not know him at all. Due to a fire at the family home all photos and documentation were destroyed, so all that remained down through the years were family stories that obviously changed with time. I decided to see if I could find out more and came across J Desmond 5465 on the CWGC web site. He was listed as having died on the 10/9/1916 while serving with the 8bn RMF and is buried at Mt Houn Military Cemetary outside Le Treport north of Dieppe.

I had two problems with this information, one, why was a Corkman listed in the 8bn which was predominently a Limerick battalion, and two, where did he receive the injuries that resulted in his death. With a bit of research I have discovered that John enlisted in Cork, although I am not sure when. I believe that therefore John had originally enlisted in the 9th Bn RMF which was predominently a Cork battalion. The 9th Bn left Ireland for Aldershot for further training in November 1915 and sailed to France on the 29th December 1915 where they rotated with the 8bn on the Loos salient. By May 1916 the 1st, 2nd and 8bn were depleted in numbers and therefore the 9th Bn was disbanded and its officers and men were reposted to those depleted battalions. Twelve officers and two hundred men of the 9th were posted to the 8th Bn. John Desmond was probably one of those men.

I have looked at engagements on the 9th September and this is when the Battle of Ginchy took place, but I do not think that he was wounded in this battle because he is buried in Le Treport which is 124 miles away from where the battle took place and if wounded on the 9th I do not think it would have been possible to have transported John to a miliarty hospital in Le Treport in that time frame. I looked furth back to the previous engagement and in my opinion it is more likely that he was wounded sometime between the 3rd and 6th of September at the Battle of Guillemont, and then transported to the military hospital in Le Treport where he died from his wounds. As the cemetary adjoining the hospital was full he was buried at the newer cemetary at Mt Houn.

John's Medal index card shows that he was awarded the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, but it seems that his family never received them as in the remarks section is written "Retd(1742 KR .1912) 8153/Adt", which suggests that the medals were returned undeliverable, but at the same time it indicates returned for adjustment but with no reference to the medals ever being re-issued. I would also be grateful if someone could let me know if he should have been awarded the 14-15 Star as he was in the theatre of war, although only for two days, before the cut off date of 31 December 1915, and if there is any way of correcting this ommision.

My main questions are as follows:

Can anyone give me any information regarding the recruitment locations for the RMF in Cork?,

Are battalion diarys available for the 9th bn up to its disbandment and for the 8th bn from May 1916 to the end of September 1916?

In light of the fact that the family never received his awards, is it possible to now make a claim for the medals and if so where and how can this be done?

Do you think that John should have been awarded the 14-15 Star in light of the information above?

Does anyone know of any surviving photographs of the 9th Bn?

And finally if anyone can give me any further piece information, no matter how small, I would be very grateful.

A bit of a long winded post I know but I felt that I had to provide as much information as I can if I am to hopefully find out anything alse. Thanks for taking the time to read this and if any of you feel that I should post this in another part of the forum please let me know. Also if there are any other avenues that I can try to find out more but have not mentioned above, I'd be delighted of a point in the right direction.

[RMF]

According to The History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers by Captain S. McCance the 9th Service Battalion disembarked at Le Havre on December 20, 1915. If John Desmond was with the Battalion when it arrived in France he would have been entitled to the 1914/15 Star, however, it is likely that not all of the Battalion would have arrived in France on December 20, 1915 as training personnel and the first reserves contingent would have stayed behind in England until called to France in early 1916.It is possible that your relative was part of the Battalion which remained in England after the main part of the Battalion had moved to France and he arrived in France in early 1916.

Regarding the serial number of your relative 5465, Martin Staunton in his Master of Arts thesis The Royal Munster Fusiliers in the Great War 1914-1919 at University College Dublin, estimated the dates of enlistment with reference to regimental numbers so you could undertake further research on enlistment dates by studying this document. I think you may find Captain McCance's history and Martin Staunton's thesis very useful in your research. Also the Royal Munster Fusiliers Association should be able to assist you.

[RMF9BN]

Again a big thank you to John, John and RMF for your help and direction. I have just heard back that there is no further detail on the medal and awards roll, so I intend to join the Ancestry site to see if I can find anything. I will also order some material from TNA from the period that I am interested in. Ordering a copy of the Captain McCances book is on the agenda.

With regard to Martin Staunton's thesis, is it available to view online or can it be purchased from UCD?

According to The History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers by Captain S. McCance the 9th Service Battalion disembarked at Le Havre on December 20, 1915. If John Desmond was with the Battalion when it arrived in France he would have been entitled to the 1914/15 Star, however, it is likely that not all of the Battalion would have arrived in France on December 20, 1915 as training personnel and the first reserves contingent would have stayed behind in England until called to France in early 1916.It is possible that your relative was part of the Battalion which remained in England after the main part of the Battalion had moved to France and he arrived in France in early 1916.

Regarding the serial number of your relative 5465, Martin Staunton in his Master of Arts thesis The Royal Munster Fusiliers in the Great War 1914-1919 at University College Dublin, estimated the dates of enlistment with reference to regimental numbers so you could undertake further research on enlistment dates by studying this document. I think you may find Captain McCance's history and Martin Staunton's thesis very useful in your research. Also the Royal Munster Fusiliers Association should be able to assist you.

[Mestalla]

i have a photo of the mont huon cemetary if you want it but not sure how to upload photos

[RMF9BN]

That would be great, thank you. If you want, you could email it to me.

i have a photo of the mont huon cemetary if you want it but not sure how to upload photos

[RMF]

Again a big thank you to John, John and RMF for your help and direction. I have just heard back that there is no further detail on the medal and awards roll, so I intend to join the Ancestry site to see if I can find anything. I will also order some material from TNA from the period that I am interested in. Ordering a copy of the Captain McCances book is on the agenda.

With regard to Martin Staunton's thesis, is it available to view online or can it be purchased from UCD?

[RMF]

Again a big thank you to John, John and RMF for your help and direction. I have just heard back that there is no further detail on the medal and awards roll, so I intend to join the Ancestry site to see if I can find anything. I will also order some material from TNA from the period that I am interested in. Ordering a copy of the Captain McCances book is on the agenda.

With regard to Martin Staunton's thesis, is it available to view online or can it be purchased from UCD?

You may have to visit the Belfield campus library of UCD to view Martin Staunton's thesis. You would have to give the library notice of when you are coming so that the document is available for you. There is provision for the thesis to be checked out for study under certain circumstances so you could explore this with the library. The UCD website may helpful in this regard.

[RMF9BN]

Thanks RMF, I'm in Cork, so going to Dublin is not an option for the rest of this year at the earliest. Just joined the Ancestry.Uk site so I might be able to pick up some more from that hopefully.

[RMF]

Schull Books should have copies of Captain McCance's Regimental History. Also the Royal Munster Fusiliers Association (see their website) should be helpful

[Mestalla]

i will email it to you.so send me you email address

[staunton]

Hello to all - hope you can access it here https://independent.academia.edu/MartinStaunton/Papers

The Royal Munster Fusiliers in the Great War, 1914-19 by Martin Staunton Thesis (M.A.) University College Dublin, 1986