Ghurkas and Sikhs on Salisbury Plain?

[Moonraker]

No less an authority than the Bella Coola Courier of December 5, 1914 states that Ghurkas (sic) and Sikhs were then on Salisbury Plain. (This was a small British Columbian newspaper who printed copy from a correspondent reporting on the First Canadian Contingent on the Plain.)

I would almost happily bet money that this was not the case. I don't imagine that there were any such units in Britain at the start of the war and I can't see any reason for them to have come to Britain at that early stage in hostilities.

I'm aware of Sikh casualties being treated in south Hampshire and of the monuments to them in East Sussex.

But was there much training of Sikh units in Britain?

And did Gurkhas serve in the European theatre?

Moonraker

[Chris_Baker]

Reserves for the Indian Corps which was by then in France, which included both Sikhs and Ghurkas? Or possibly men already evacuated from that theatre due to wound or sickness?

[Broznitsky]

I bet the correspondent mistook some tanned Russians with snow on their boots and snow on their ushankas (fur hat) for some Sikhs.

[centurion]

I bet the correspondent mistook some tanned Russians with snow on their boots and snow on their ushankas (fur hat) for some Sikhs.

Gurkha and turbaned Indian troops were in France by Dec 1914. The Sirhind Indian Infantry Brigade, attached to 3rd (Lahore) Division was on the Western Front by then. This also contained the 1st Btn Gurkha Rifles who fought at Givenchy then Neuve Chapelle, 2nd Ypres (including St. Julien), Festubert and Finally Loos. Other Gurkha Rifles Battalions also fought in France the 8th Btn suffering horrific casualties at Loos (it was said "fighting to the last man standing"). As the Sirhind Brigade arrived in Britain before deploying to France it is quite possible that various soldiers from the sub continent were on Salisbury Plains in December 1914.

All Indian Infantry plus the Gurkhas were withdrawn from France before the winter of 15/16 began. It is said that German troops in Trenches opposite the Gurkhas were much relieved as they had lost sentries to small unofficial trench raids (well they didn't loose all the sentry just the top bit!)

The following links to the Gurkha museum in Winchester shows the Gurkhas in France

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4785704897_087de18819_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4785704683_949209fb36_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4785706213_8df7784b28_b.jpg

[Old Owl]

Indian troops in the form of the Lahore Division were in France by 21st October, 1914 and took their first casualties very soon afterwards. The Division was made up of several British Army regular battalions plus Gurkhas, Sikhs, etc., so it is probably quite likely that some of these may have appeared on Salisbury Plain by December, for any number of reasons, or was it just a way of saying that the Indian troops were now at the front brigaded with British Regulars?

Incidentally the Sirhind Brigade(part of the Lahore Division) was delayed and did not arrive in France until 7th December, so as Centurion has already pointed out these could be the troops referred to? although in the Indian Corps in France it refers to the Sirhind Brigade arriving from Egypt under Major General Brunker? so perhaps they were not in England prior to this?

[mike n]

the imjured sikhs were also treated in brighton thats why there is the monument just outside the city

[centurion]

Indian troops in the form of the Lahore Division were in France by 21st October, 1914 and took their first casualties very soon afterwards. The Division was made up of several British Army regular battalions plus Gurkhas, Sikhs, etc., so it is probably quite likely that some of these may have appeared on Salisbury Plain by December, for any number of reasons, or was it just a way of saying that the Indian troops were now at the front brigaded with British Regulars?

Incidentally the Sirhind Brigade(part of the Lahore Division) was delayed and did not arrive in France until 7th December, so as Centurion has already pointed out these could be the troops referred to? although in the Indian Corps in France it refers to the Sirhind Brigade arriving from Egypt under Major General Brunker? so perhaps they were not in England prior to this?

The Gurkha were part of the Sirhind Brigade so would not have been in France before 7th December. I can find no reference to them having been in Egypt before then. Perhaps from Egypt effectively means having passed through the Suez canal? I have seen a reference to them being deployed from England.

[Old Owl]

The Gurkha were part of the Sirhind Brigade so would not have been in France before 7th December. I can find no reference to them having been in Egypt before then. Perhaps from Egypt effectively means having passed through the Suez canal? I have seen a reference to them being deployed from England.

The 1/9th,2/2nd,2/3rd and 2/8th Bns Gurkhas were as part of the Meerut Division all in France and at the front by 29th October,1914 and on the 30th October the 2/8th took extremely heavy casualties amounting to 9 British and 5 Indian officers and over 200 o/rs, when they were bombarded by the Germans. The 2/2nd Bn Gurkhas also took heavy casualties on 2nd November,

amounting to some 8 British and 7 Indian officers and over 130 o/rs.

Of course the 1/4th and 1/1st Bns Gurkha Rifles were the only Gurkhas who served as part of the Lahore Division and both formed part of the Sirhind Brigade along with 1st HLI and 125th Napiers Rifles.

Reading further into the Lahore Division it appears that when it left Egypt on 19th September, that it left behind the Sirhind brigade, which then carried out guard duties on the Suez Canal, where it remained until it embarked for France arriving at Marseilles on the 30th November,1914. So it would appear that it never went to England or at least not at that time.

[Steven Broomfield]

The 2/8th Gurkhas joined the Ferozepore brigade (Lahore Division) in January 1915; until then the composition of the brigade contained no Gurkha battalions.

The 1/1st and 1/4th GR were with the Jullundur Brigade (Lahore Dvision) until September 1914 (as were the 2/4th):all three battalions left the brigade in September, so it, too, had no GR battalions at the time.

The Sirhind Brigade, as mentioned, remained on the Canal until late November. It contained both the 1/1st and 1/4th GR.

In the Meerut Division, the Dehra Dun Brgade contained the 2/2nd and 1/9th GR until November/December 1915. The Bareilly Brigade had the 2/8th GR until January, '15. Finaly, the Garhwal Brigade had the 2/3rd GR. It also had the 1/ and 2/39th Garhwal Rifles, which were comprosed of an ethnic group easily mistaken for Gurkhas (and which wore an almost identical uniform).

All Indian units and formations arrived via Marseilles, not by England.

As for Sikhs - take your pick: almost every non-British, non-Gurkha or non-Garhwali unit would have had some, including the units of the two Cavalry Divisions.

[bushfighter]

I wouldn't doubt the report, as when Divisions locate into a theatre detachments immediately populate the line of communication (LOC) behind them.

Post 2 gives sound reasons, to which could be added attendance on UK-based training courses plus the posting to UK of extra regimentally employed personnel.

Involvement in the provision of special food supplies for Indian units could also have been a reason why Indians were so far back on the LOC.

Harry

[Moonraker]

By coincidence, there's a postcard being offered on eBay of the 3rd Lahore Division train:

See here

Because the card was sent from Lark Hill Camp on Salisbury Plain the vendor suggests the photograph was taken there. I've many cards posted from locations different to those shown in the photographs, and the hut in the background doesn't look very Lark Hillish. Certainly I'm not tempted to bid.

Moonraker

[centurion]

By coincidence, there's a postcard being offered on eBay of the 3rd Lahore Division train:

See here

Because the card was sent from Lark Hill Camp on Salisbury Plain the vendor suggests the photograph was taken there. I've many cards posted from locations different to those shown in the photographs, and the hut in the background doesn't very Lark Hillish. Certainly I'm not tempted to bid.

Moonraker

The Canadian 1st Contingent did errect some huts not unlike that at Lark Hill so it might be right but you're right to be cautious

[generalist]

Reserves for the Indian Corps which was by then in France, which included both Sikhs and Ghurkas? Or possibly men already evacuated from that theatre due to wound or sickness?

I've had a quick skim through With The Indians In France, and it suggests most reinforcements went straight to Marseilles (which makes sense, thinking about it). Wounded soldiers, however, were:

...speedily removed to the special hospitals in England, and those for India left later for that country or for Egypt, according to orders. (p.100)

It seems recovered men were mostly returned to depots at Marseilles - at one point, the author complains that they weren't being "kept in England" - but there may have been small groups based in England for some time waiting for shipping, etc.

-Andrew.

[bushfighter]

Sadly some Generals and civilian moralists became upset at the signs of affection that certain local ladies in England showed towards convalescing Indian soldiers.

The problem was dumped in southern France.

Harry