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Honorable Artillery Company


bmaycock

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Good day from Nova Scotia

We recently found out that my wife’s grandfather was a member of the HAC in WW1. Finding his poem (below) provided a cross-reference to the medal roll where several D Clarkes are recorded. I have ordered the book - Honourable Artillery Company in the Great War 1914 – but am interested in knowing of any other sources of information that would help us get to know Douglas’ war better.

The only record we have thus far is:

Catalogue Reference:WO/372/4 Image Reference:15457

Name: Clarke Douglas C

Corps: H.A.C. (Honorable Artillery Corps)

Rank: Pt

Regt no. 7800

medal: Victory

roll: TP/103 B/4

page: 2777

His name doesn’t appear to show up on the more comprehensive, searchable military databases.

Two questions:

First, is there anything in the ‘code’ of the above record that would help us move further in getting to know Douglas Cameron Clarke? and;

Second, is there anything that we can know in particular about the HAC’s involvement at Bullencourt (see poem below)? What reading I have done on the net makes no mention of the Honorable Artillery Corps. Would they have been ‘absorbed’ into a much larger unit?

POEM:

The Taking of Bullecourt.

There is one day I’ll ne’er forget, that cloudless third of May,

As in supports we sat and talked and longed for break of day.

The sun had scarcely raised his head when we went forth to fight,

And long before he sank to rest it was a bloody sight.

Brave lads who just two hours before were in, the prime of life

Lay stiff and stark upon the ground – destruction it was rife.

The cursed Huns with crime-stained hands and blood lust in their souls

Just murdered our poor wounded lads, then slunk back to their holes.

They drove us back – first once, then twice – but still we were not done;

We swore to God in heaven above that victory should be won

We thought of all our silent pals, their eyelids closed in sleep,

And vowed we’d take full vengeance for their wounds that gaped so deep.

Our colonel called us round him, and his face was good to see,

“Who’ll volunteer to go again?” A roar went up, “Why, we!”

We started ere the sun was set, our steps were firm and fast,

The Hun was caught right off his guard – his hour had come at last.

The gallant Anzacs on our right heaped glory on their name,

And when we drove the Germans back they had not fought in vain.

At last when we’d got time to breathe we counted up our men;

We started out one hundred strong, and all that stood were ten.

Our wounded heroes lay about, their spirits did not flag

They whispered, “Give me water, lad, and if you can a fag.”

Our padre, too, God rest his soul, worked with us might and main

To bandage up their grievous wounds till he, alas, was slain.

And when next morn we were relieved by good old “Scot” and “Devon”

We knew that our dear pals that were, smiled down on us from heaven.

The history of this war when told will give our boys full praise;

Till then they simply do and die, and God maps out their ways.

Pte. D. C. Clarke. H. A. C.

A poem based on actual fact after the event, composed by Pte. D. C. Clarke, Honorable Artillery Company, in aid of VA. D. Hospitals entertainment and Comforts Fund

As always, the wisdom of members of this group is much appreciated.

Thank you

Bryan Maycock

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First, is there anything in the ‘code’ of the above record that would help us move further in getting to know Douglas Cameron Clarke? and;

First of all, HAC stands for Honourable Artillery Company, not Corp. Although, the name is a bit might misleading as they are a regiment, not a company.

One thing that stands out, from the above record, is your relative being a Private. In WW1, most members of HAC served in artillery units. However, HAC also raised some infantry battalions. Given that your relative's rank wasn't Gunner i.e. someone in Royal Artillery, but was Private, I'd suggest he's was probably in one of HAC's infantry units.

Second, is there anything that we can know in particular about the HAC’s involvement at Bullencourt (see poem below)? What reading I have done on the net makes no mention of the Honorable Artillery Corps. Would they have been ‘absorbed’ into a much larger unit?

To answer your last question, yes. HAC's various units would have been "absorbed" into all sorts of units. To make a suggestion, you might want to study the role of regiments in the British Army.

HAC has a well run website: www.hac.org.uk If you ask them nicely, they might be able to give you some more information.

Antony

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Hi Bryan

I think your wife's Gf would have been in the 2/1st HAC. They were with 22nd Brigade, 7th Division which took part in the flanking operaton: Battle of Bullecourt 3-17 May 1917.

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Bryan

Just browsing and not finding a service record for your subject,but a clue as to the number 7800 might be deduced from the record of number 4898 who was also a Clarke (!)in the HAC who enlisted on 9 Nov 1915,so it is likely that your man did so any time from then into 1916. I would say that as 1/1 Battalion was already in France from Sep 1914 that he was part of 2/1 which landed in France in Oct 1916,fought there until Nov 1917,when it moved out to Italy. 22 Brigade of 7 Division had the honour of the 2/1 Honourables' presence.

The Bullecourt tussle lasted from 3 to 17 May 1917 for 7 Division.

The reference you quote "roll TP103B4 page 277 (you overdid the 7s !)relates to the original Medal Roll which is at our National Archives in Ledger WO329/323 and which will confirm the Battalion he served on first landing in France.

The story of the unit for France is enclosed in it's War Diary,also at our NA,reference WO95/1662,which tells the story from landing in Oct 1916 through to departure for Italy in Nov 1917.There is also a Diary for Italy under WO95/4225 which runs from Dec 1917 to Mar 1919

Sotonmate

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Thanks Antony.

The Corps was my error - It is Company throughout apart from the one slip.

There is no family lore that suggests he was anything but an infantryman - so what you suggest makes sense.

Bryan

First of all, HAC stands for Honourable Artillery Company, not Corp. Although, the name is a bit might misleading as they are a regiment, not a company.

One thing that stands out, from the above record, is your relative being a Private. In WW1, most members of HAC served in artillery units. However, HAC also raised some infantry battalions. Given that your relative's rank wasn't Gunner i.e. someone in Royal Artillery, but was Private, I'd suggest he's was probably in one of HAC's infantry units.

To answer your last question, yes. HAC's various units would have been "absorbed" into all sorts of units. To make a suggestion, you might want to study the role of regiments in the British Army.

HAC has a well run website: www.hac.org.uk If you ask them nicely, they might be able to give you some more information.

Antony

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Interesting. Can you say more about why you think this?

Thanks

Bryan

Hi Bryan

I think your wife's Gf would have been in the 2/1st HAC. They were with 22nd Brigade, 7th Division which took part in the flanking operaton: Battle of Bullecourt 3-17 May 1917.

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Many thanks for the comprehensive reply.

You have moved things along for us and provided some new places to look.

Hopefully, the ledgers you refer to are available to me digitally. Plenty of things to check.

Bryan

Bryan

Just browsing and not finding a service record for your subject,but a clue as to the number 7800 might be deduced from the record of number 4898 who was also a Clarke (!)in the HAC who enlisted on 9 Nov 1915,so it is likely that your man did so any time from then into 1916. I would say that as 1/1 Battalion was already in France from Sep 1914 that he was part of 2/1 which landed in France in Oct 1916,fought there until Nov 1917,when it moved out to Italy. 22 Brigade of 7 Division had the honour of the 2/1 Honourables' presence.

The Bullecourt tussle lasted from 3 to 17 May 1917 for 7 Division.

The reference you quote "roll TP103B4 page 277 (you overdid the 7s !)relates to the original Medal Roll which is at our National Archives in Ledger WO329/323 and which will confirm the Battalion he served on first landing in France.

The story of the unit for France is enclosed in it's War Diary,also at our NA,reference WO95/1662,which tells the story from landing in Oct 1916 through to departure for Italy in Nov 1917.There is also a Diary for Italy under WO95/4225 which runs from Dec 1917 to Mar 1919

Sotonmate

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Hiya,Bryan.

There is a cemetery not 2km's from Bullecourt HAC so,if you check the link,you may find some of his colleagues there.

If you do,& you'd like a photo,let me know.I'm often found there.

Dave.

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Interesting. Can you say more about why you think this?

H Bryan.

I took it that he was in one of the HAC infantry battalions and was also at Bullecourt on May 3rd. The 2/1st HAC is listed as being in a Division which took part in this battle. The 1/1st HAC took part in the Arras Offensive but was not at Bullecourt.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Douglas Cameron Clarke was definitely in the 2nd Bn HAC, I've included a transcript from the1919 members list. The HAC suffered 165 fatalities in the battles for Bullecourt. As recently as 2009 the remains of three HAC members were found in a field (one has been identified as Capt Pritchard link). I can recommend further reading:

The Honourable Artillery Company 1914-1919 by Major G. Goold Walker

Over the top, a "PBI" in the HAC by Arthur Lambert

Both are available on line at www.naval-military-press.com

Bullecourt 1917 by Paul Kendall ISBN 978 0 7524 5745 1

Gerd

Clarke Douglas Cameron

regt. no. 7800

coy. C

rank Pte

admitted 1916

draft n° 2-?

member list 1919 p72

adres 1 61, Oakhurst-grove, East Dulwich, S.E.,

"information drawn from the HAC 2nd Bn database list"

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  • 1 year later...

I may be wrong, but somebody called D C Clarke (or different initials) from the HAC attended my Grandfather's wedding c1922, which I have a picture of and the newspaper write-up which I will check to see if the Mr Clarke's initials were actually D. C.and revert. I remember my Grandfather (Albert Charles King, army no 6860) telling me about the war and the day he was shot twice taking men to capture a German machine gun post at somewhere called Jolting Houses on 9-Oct-1917, when the HAC lost a lot of men, and which I have visited. I have his trench map from that battle and you are welcome to a copy. My grandfather actuall joined up with Harry Moss (later a director of Moss Bros) whose army no was 6861, My e-mail address is (removed) and my name is David

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  • 11 years later...

The poem  was an excellent and moving upload. My GGrandfather Pvt William Huson Watts 4646 fought in 2nd/1st H.A.C at Ecoust, Bucquoy and 2nd Bullecourt ...

 

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You can find Jolting Houses in TrenchMapper, just put Jolting into the search box. Change maps in the left panel to suit purpose and date.

Howard

Jolting houses.jpg

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