Beselare Posted 28 October , 2011 Share Posted 28 October , 2011 Many of you will have visited this cemetery with 111 Canadian graves near Vimy Ridge. There are three neat rows, but the centre row has one grave at right angles to the row, facing the entrance. It is that of Pte. Henry Kirkham and the register shows his grave number as D1 (all the others are in rows A, B or C). A friend has found a living relative of Pte. Kirkham who when he saw a photo of the cemetery, enquired why this gravestone was in such a position and my friend has passed that query on to me to help. Having searched the internet I am none the wiser. Can anyone provide any information for me? Many thanks Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 28 October , 2011 Share Posted 28 October , 2011 Hello Bob Here is the link to the CWGC site describing the cemetery, from which you can follow a link for the cemetery plan. http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_details.aspx?cemetery=68402&mode=1 It seems to have been used for deaths over a very short period. A likely explanation is that grave D1 was the last burial, and it may originally have been intended as the first grave in a new row which was never needed. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPJermyn Posted 29 October , 2011 Share Posted 29 October , 2011 I'd sure like to know the burial details and I hope that I can get them but for now here is a response from Veteran Affairs. Thanks Bob for starting this posting and for everyone else here who keep the memories alive. The Givenchy Road Canadian Cemetery contains the bodies of Canadian soldiers all of whom fell on the 9th April 1917, or on one of the four following days during the Battle of Vimy Ridge. Most of the casualties are from the 102nd, 54th, 75th and 87th Battalions of the 4th Division. The cemetery is actually a large shell hole. The casualties were buried in a mass grave and this is why the headstones are so closely positioned next to each other. The bodies of the soldiers in these rows are not necessarily next to the headstones. They are known to be buried in a mass grave in the cemetery, but the exact location for each one is not known. I expect that Private Kirkham's remains were located some time after the mass burial, possibly even years later, and this is why his headstone is in a separate place. He is most likely the only soldier who is buried next to his headstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 29 October , 2011 Share Posted 29 October , 2011 I'd sure like to know the burial details and I hope that I can get them but for now here is a response from Veteran Affairs. Thanks Bob for starting this posting and for everyone else here who keep the memories alive. The Givenchy Road Canadian Cemetery contains the bodies of Canadian soldiers all of whom fell on the 9th April 1917, or on one of the four following days during the Battle of Vimy Ridge. Most of the casualties are from the 102nd, 54th, 75th and 87th Battalions of the 4th Division. The cemetery is actually a large shell hole. The casualties were buried in a mass grave and this is why the headstones are so closely positioned next to each other. The bodies of the soldiers in these rows are not necessarily next to the headstones. They are known to be buried in a mass grave in the cemetery, but the exact location for each one is not known. I expect that Private Kirkham's remains were located some time after the mass burial, possibly even years later, and this is why his headstone is in a separate place. He is most likely the only soldier who is buried next to his headstone. I am not so sure about that - ie the bodies do not lie under the headstones: one can think of other cemeteries where the solution was to put names on a wall (eg nearby Zivy and Lichfield craters). The CWGC has manuscript cemetery reports (I heard vaguely that they were digitalising these) and that might solve the problem - if you can get hold of them. As regards putting him in years later, again I would have doubts - especially as the nearby Canadian No 2 was open for years after the war. However, quite willing to be proved wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norrette Posted 30 October , 2011 Share Posted 30 October , 2011 As regards putting him in years later, again I would have doubts - especially as the nearby Canadian No 2 was open for years after the war. However, quite willing to be proved wrong! Hi all, This is of personal interest to me. My G-Uncle was originally buried nr Givenchy in October 1917 I would like to know if this is the Givenchy Cemetery or if anyone knows which part of the battlefield this might have been. He was then re-buried in CC No. 2 in 1920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 30 October , 2011 Share Posted 30 October , 2011 What this suggests is that he was originally buried in an isolated grave or with a small number of others (possibly with a larger number but in an inaccessible spot by road/track) and that in the post war clearance his body was removed to an established cemetery. Canadian Cemetery 2 is a concentration cemetery (ie the dead were brought in from the area, though in the case of CC No 2 they came from as far afield as the Belgian coast and has casualties dating back to the early months of the war); such cemeteries were usually an expansion (sometimes a massive expansion) of an existing military cemetery. Check the CWGC entry for the cemetery. Unfortunately I cannot lay my hands on the original printed register for a few months; sometimes these have more details than the website of some of the cemeteries that were brought into the concentration ones. Canadian No 2 was the last WWI cemetery in France to have its register printed, at least implying that it was taking casualties for some years after the war was over. I do not think for a moment that he was already buried in Givenchy Road and transferred to No 2 - there would be no reason to do so that I can think of. I do not have a map with me, but it seems to me that he was originally buried on the eastern side of the ridge; it might help a bit if we knew his battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norrette Posted 30 October , 2011 Share Posted 30 October , 2011 Thanks Nigel, I know his gravesite as I have visited it in CC2 - he was with the 2nd CMR and fell on 9th April (see my sig for further details). Just to trying to establish which part of the attack he fell in. I never found out which company he was in from his service record so the War Diaries are not helping to pin him down. My guess has always been La Folie Farm, wondering if this is 1.5 miles out of Givenchy, but I could easily be wrong. Excellent book of yours re: Vimy btw. Norrette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 HI Norrette I think you may be right with a burial site somewhere in the Folie Farm area. It would make sense (being no longer under observation) that casualties during the 9th, on the west side of the ridge, should have been buried more or less where they fell. It fits well with the distance south of Givenchy given in the letter. If you contact CWCG, it may take a while but they should be able to find concentration details and a more accurate spot for where the original burial was made. It seems that so many smaller cemeteries and isolated graves were concentrated into 2CC that details are not given in the modern register, although Nigel may come up trumps with an earlier one. Jim Forgot to add - your web site is a really nice tribute to your Gt Uncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 Hi Norrette, I don't have access to my Trench Map Atlas so perhaps a kind Pal would be able to check out these coordinates re:burial to see if they match the position of the cemetery? Ernest's CEF Grave Register: 36.SW.S.28 c.3.4 and S.21.a.6.7 (sheet 44a) Ahaaaa ...... On his CEF Burial Register it says Sheet 44 S.21.a.6.7 is his grave location at CC2. So, this is the question. Is 36.SW.S.28.3.4 within Givenchy Road Canadian Cemetery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 If the coordinates are correct then he was first buried here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 This (and my usual thanks to Linesman) is where on the modern map. Must have been a small plot of burials or an individual one. CWGC could answer that. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 Thanks Jim. As you say, as long as the coordinates are correct. Got my dvd back. Here's a quick overlay. Red X marks what I think is the original burial spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 I do not have my books, maps, WDs etc with me (and shall not for a couple of months) but it would seem he was buried somewhere to the rear of the original start line of the CRM in an area that is part of the Vimy site but not open to the public. If you have my books - both the original Vimy and the one I did with Jack Sheldon, I think the mapping there should allow you to place him on, for example, the CRM positions (also useful would be Alex Turner's book on Vimy in the Osprey series). The location is not a million miles from entrances to the Goodman Subway. So it looks as though the body would have been moved along with any other known ones (and presumably any others they could find) as part of the Vimy memorial site clearance and preparation (though I cannot recall the date when the extent of the site was greatly expanded by a gift from the French). What I can tell you is that this area is relatively undisturbed, apart from forestry tracks, presumably some pretty rudimentary munitions clearance (there are still a lot in there - a very limited area clearance down about 50 cms, if memory serves, about seven years, ago produced a vast array of munitions, man traps etc)) and the effects of nature, For example, the mine craters are all still there - The Twins very impressively so; so are mortar pits, a couple of wombat craters, comms trenches, main line position etc etc. All of these are obscured by fairly hefty aforestation. Of course, with a decent trench map, the same can be said of much of the rest of the site, in terms of identifiable remnants of craters, front lines, comms trenches etc etc e in the public parts of the site. Goodman has been quite well (though not fully, because of collapse issues) investigated by the Durand Group in the past (tho' for various reasons the work is in abeyance at the moment) - there are some diagrams etc and a few photos in it in the book that Phillip Robinson and I had published earlier this year. (I hope that's not considered plugging!! Admins feel free to remove!). Edit: I find I have First Army Mining Plans on a stick; if Jim's Post No 10 position is accurate (even give and take) then the original burial position would appear to have been a hundred metres or so south of the Goodman Subway, no great distance from the front line and close to the principal track running through this part of the site, which has the main Canadian line position almost immediately to its west in this particular area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norrette Posted 2 November , 2011 Share Posted 2 November , 2011 Goodness lads, I have been away for a couple of days and look at all the work you've done for me! I am glad to read he was buried near the Goodman - that means it is possible, if not probable, he was in 'D' company and did indeed fall at La Folie - perhaps along with Lieut. Heather, following an attack from the air. (Heather is another family name tho' I haven't established any links as of yet). Thanks for the CWGC idea Jim, I didn't realise they kept records of original burials. Thanks for the trench maps Robert - hope your research is going well. And Nigel...looks like your next book will be v. interesting, I have Alex Turner's. I must get to the Goodman tunnel when there aren't hordes of visitors (It was closed* by the time I got there on the 90th anniversary). Norrette *Edit - getting my tunnels confused - it is the Grange that has public access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 3 November , 2011 Share Posted 3 November , 2011 Hi Norrette. Nice to hear from you. Goodman it is. I've just found this info among my 'well organised' computer folders. Goodman ran between A.3.a.1/2.4. and S.28.c.41/2.6. You can see where it would have continued into square 28 in this pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPJermyn Posted 16 November , 2011 Share Posted 16 November , 2011 Many of you will have visited this cemetery with 111 Canadian graves near Vimy Ridge. There are three neat rows, but the centre row has one grave at right angles to the row, facing the entrance. It is that of Pte. Henry Kirkham and the register shows his grave number as D1 (all the others are in rows A, B or C). A friend has found a living relative of Pte. Kirkham who when he saw a photo of the cemetery, enquired why this gravestone was in such a position and my friend has passed that query on to me to help. Having searched the internet I am none the wiser. Can anyone provide any information for me? Many thanks Bob Good day, Has anyone any further information on this mystery?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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