Eran Tearosh Posted 21 October , 2011 Share Posted 21 October , 2011 While reading about the deeds during the battle around Jerusalem on Dec. 9th 1917 for which Corporal C.W. Train received the V.C. and Corporal F.S Thornhill received the D.C.M. I decided to try to locate the place were these events took place. To start with, the place mentioned is Tumulus Hill and as we are talking about 2/14 London it is very easy to locate the hill mentioned – The South-West part of today's modern Jerusalem, Just East of Ein-Karem, a long hill which 3 modern neighborhoods are built upon: Eir-Ganim, Kiryat-Menachem & Kiryat-Yovel. The name Tumulus Hill derives from the presence of some 19 Tumulus's on that hill at that time (Several still exist), the most dominate one is in the midst of a small open area at the center of Eir-Ganim. A few words about this group of Tumulus's (Including photo) can be found in the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus#Levant Massey, in his book 'How Jerusalem Was Won' gives (Pages 179-180) quite a vivid description of the events and gives the only clues that might assist to locate more or less the location of the Turkish positions that were stormed by Train & Thornhill. Quote: "… The Queens Westminsters (Who were attacking Khurbet A-Subr, left and above Ein-Karem and left of Tumulus hill) were exposed to heavy flanking fire at a range of about a thousand yards, from a Tumulus South-East of Ain-Karim, above the road from the village to the Western suburbs of Jerusalem…" According to various maps describing the Turkish redoubts, the line on Tumulus hill was made of a very long (about a Mile) single line facing West where it's Northern part fits Massey's description by direction, distance and location above the old road between Ein-Karem & Jerusalem. Today the Western part of the neighborhood of Kiryat-Yovel is built upon this part of the hill and the most likely exact place is the vicinity of the Alin Hospital. The only place where we can view today some of the Turkish line is Kurbet H'amama (Known then as Khurbet A-Subr) near the Yad-Vashem institute of today. In addition, Massey is describing another impressive event against a Turkish battery carried out by two soldiers of the Queens Westminsters (2/16 London), Corporal W.H Whines and Rifleman C.D Smith (Pages 180-181). This event happened probably near today's entrance to the Israeli Military Cemetery of Mount Herzel. I don't know if they were decorated for their actions – If anyone has access to that information and/or photos of either one – I would appreciate the help. Strange, but I can't find any photo of the V.C. recipient, Corporal C.W. Train and/or his comrade, Corporal F.S Thornhill - Any help with that would be most appreciated. Eran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 21 October , 2011 Share Posted 21 October , 2011 Eran, for a small charge, a photograph of Train VC is available here http://www.ww1photos.com/London14th.html The left margin of the page also mentions Lt-Col Lindsay's book 'The London Scottish in the Great War': I understand that this book also has a description of Train's action regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 3 November , 2011 Share Posted 3 November , 2011 Eran, re your: In addition, Massey is describing another impressive event against a Turkish battery carried out by two soldiers of the Queens Westminsters (2/16 London), Corporal W.H Whines and Rifleman C.D Smith (Pages 180-181). This event happened probably near today's entrance to the Israeli Military Cemetery of Mount Herzel. I don't know if they were decorated for their actions – If anyone has access to that information and/or photos of either one – I would appreciate the help I can only find one London Gazette entry for the name Whines: this is it From the SUPPLEMFNT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 10 APRIL 1918 His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of the Military Medal for bravery in the Field to the undermentioned Non-commissioned Officers and Men: — 552309 Pte. (A./L./C.) H. C. Whines, Lond. R. (Finsbury Park). See http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30622/supplements/4392 regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eran Tearosh Posted 4 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2011 Hi Michael, Thank you for this info. Good chance it is the same man, although the initials of First & Middle name are different. I noticed that this happens quite often. Is there a specific Museum or Association you know about that might be connected to the Queens Westminsters (2/16 London) of WW1? Again, many thanks, Eran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 4 November , 2011 Share Posted 4 November , 2011 On 04/11/2011 at 16:32, Eran said: Hi Michael, Thank you for this info. Good chance it is the same man, although the initials of First & Middle name are different. I noticed that this happens quite often. Is there a specific Museum or Association you know about that might be connected to the Queens Westminsters (2/16 London) of WW1? Again, many thanks, Eran Eran, I have no information on this myself, however, I did find something on an old thread here on the GWF and perhaps it will be of use to you quote: The Queen's Westminsters were a battalion of the London Regiment 1908-1918 and were known as the 16th County of London Battalion with affiliations to the King's Royal Rifle Corps (now the Royal Green Jackets). There are two regimental museums which may be able to help you: The Royal Green Jackets Museum, Peninsula barracks, Romsey Road, Winchester, Hants SO23 8TS. Tel: 01962.828549 Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (London) Museum, HM Tower of London, London EC3N 4AB. Tel: 020 7481 4944 There may also be records of the soldiers whose lives you are looking into at the National Archives, Ruskin Avenue, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU. from - good luck Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Wilson Posted 3 December , 2011 Share Posted 3 December , 2011 Eran There is a useful six and half page write up on TRAIN in 'The Sideshows' by Gerald Gliddon - VCs of The First World War published in 2005 - ISBN 0 7509 2084 X. The write up includes two photos of TRAIN, (one showing him receiving his VC from King George at Blendecques (HQ 2nd Army) on 6 Aug 1918) ; also map of the action at Ain Karim 8th Decemberr 1917. Gliddon's sources being quoted as: NA WO95/4660 60th London Division. NA WO95/4667 179th Infantry Brigade NA WO99/4668 2/14 London Regiment NA Burnt File Misssorts The London Scottish Regimental HQ, The London Scottish Regimental Gazette (Sept 1918 and June 1965) BASER B - Kilts Across the Jordan (Witherb,1925). His entry in 'The Victoria Cross' by O'MOORE CREAGH & E.M.HUMPHRIS page 275 does not include a portrait photo. Best of luck with your research. Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eran Tearosh Posted 6 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2011 Philip, Thanks for that . I'll try to find this book around here. Contact me when you get to Jerusalem.... Eran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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