Translation of poster needed

[telaw]

The problem with this script, as I think Dragon has discovered is that it does indeed fall into the time when Turkish was written in Arab script. Modern Arabs can't read it, Turks can't and it's not Syrian dialect. Neither is it "High Arabic" which is used in script. I've had a lot of problems with this writing in the past and usually send it to friends in Penn sate Uni. I'll forward this, but don't hild your breath for q quick answer.

Tom

[Swni]

We are also mad with curiosity but Dragon/Gwyn did say that it may take a while for her friends to come back with an answer and looking at what Gwyn has said to me previously and what Telaw said above - it is not an easy thing to translate. I have tried for years and years to get a translation, as has my mother before me so a few weeks won't make any difference - I just hope that I am able to get it translated because it really is maddening not to be able to understand it!

Thanks for your interest!

Sue

[Dragon]

..

I have deleted or edited most of my posts in this thread.

The main reason for this is the potential sensitivity of the political situation at the moment.

The seond reason is that I was unable to help so my posts have no longer any relevance.

Gwyn

Edited 23 September , 2004 by Dragon

[marina]

looks like you;re the Last Cahnce saloon, Tom! Fingers crossed but breathing normally!

Marina

[telaw]

Here are the two documents I mentioned in an earlier post that I was hoping someone could identify what they were about. They are both sides of one piece of paper. Any help would be great, thanks

Matt

Matt

A little progress on yours. The front is a "Weakness and Illness report" to be filled in on the reverse. The language is difficult to decipher as it's that awful Turk-Arabic cross. Part of the reverse is translated though my wife isn't 100% sure and asks not to be quoted.

Tom

[Matthew King]

Thanks Tom and thanks to your wife for the translation.

The piece of paper has always been in my Grandads collection of momentos and it nice to know what it is about. Must have obtained it on his trips to the many hospitals.

[Dogan Sahin]

Oh Gwyn

I hadn't thought of that!!

I DO hope not (giggle) after all the trouble you've gone to and all the anticipation!!

Sue

[/

Hi,

I am not sure if Im a bit late for this therad but if any of you have any Ottoman documents and can deliver a copy to me Ill do my best to get them translated (please not a whole book!)

regards

[bob lembke]

Yes, written Ottoman Turkish is a pill. Modern Turkish may be the most difficult major language in the world, certainly as a spoken language. Ottoman Turkish was much more complex; for example, one, especially someone who thought themselves educated, would jam in Arabic and Persian (Iranian) poetry, while there were lots of words in these languages in even simpler Turkish. (E.g., in Modern Turkish, when a person leaves another, the expression that the person leaving is basically Arabic, stating "I am placing myself in the hands of Allah" ; the person being left responds in Turkish, basically saying: "Go happily, go happily!" Sort of a verbal "Happy face".

I have identified about ten alphabets that Turkish has been written in in the last 800 years. Arabic, used for several hundred years, is not well suited for the much more complex Turkish; for example, I think that Turkish has eight vowels, while the Arabic alphabet has, I believe, only three vowel forms.

I am certainly not an expert here, only know a few words of Turkish, not much more Arabic, but most of the above is correct, I think. Mention was made above of the gentleman who translated the diary of the Turkish lieutenant from Ottoman Turkish to Modern Turkish; supposedly it took the owner of the diary a long time to find the gentleman to do the transliteration/translation.

Also, we cannot be sure that Ottoman Turkish Arabic script is the same as Arabic Arabic script.In fact I really doubt it. First of all, Ottoman Turkish, as I mentioned, being quite different and more complex , probably required modification to the alphabet. Russian and Serbian are relatively similar, compared to Ottoman Turkish vs. Arabic, but the Serbian Cyrillic and the Russian Cyrillic alphabets are similar but not the same.

Although the two estimates of Turkish literacy in WW I that I have seen were 3% and 5%, due in part to the great complexity of Ottoman Turkish, as per above, and the lack of universal education, the Turks in Ottoman times were maniacal record keepers. A German commander complained that his company commanders were, in the front lines, expected to produce on a regular basis 146 different reports. As almost no enlisted men, like sergeants, were literate, these reports could generally not be kept by the company sergeant-major/first sergeant, for example. (In the German Army the equivilant, the Feldwebel, did or was responsible for 95% of this type of work, I think.)

I am running my mouth here, but I think I have given an idea of the complexities in this area.

Bob Lembke

[Eran Tearosh]

I came across this old thread a few months ago, and it "Rang a bell". It took some time to figure out what it was – Something I read long ago.

I came across an American book from 1933 named 'Allenby's capture of Jerusalem'. The book was written by an American named Evan Anreiren Watkins, a devoted member and a minister of the Baptist Church. Wales borne, he became an American at an early age. Studied Medicine and went to Palestine in 1882. Working among the Bedouins and living their lifestyle he became known as 'Watkins Bey', a nickname he was very proud about.

He was recruited to the intelligence department of EEF, ranked Colonel, and was present at the capture of Jerusalem in December 1917.

One must be cautious using this source as a 100% reliable one – There are quite a few mixed details and Watkins has some very unique and unusual views and perspectives regarding the events of Jerusalem's capture. Definitely, he is not an objective writer. However, he was the one who translated the letter of surrender and as a First-Hand witness of some of the events, he is a fascinating source. As far as reporting events he was a part of, including translations of several documents – He seems completely reliable.

Watkins reports a Turkish council of war on November 21^st 1917 which he describes as quite hysterical. Many leading citizens of the various communities of the city were deported to Nablus. According to different sources, Ali Fuad, in command of the Turkish forces in and around Jerusalem, issued during November 26^th two proclamations – One of them suggesting the citizens who are suppose to report for duty and haven't done so yet to do so by their own good will, however those who won't and will be captured will be hanged by Jaffa Gate. The other proclamation, the more important one (and it is possible that there was only one proclamation, this one), was translated by Watkins Bey and reported as hanged all over the city (Number 3 is a killer):

 

 

Proclamation

Jerusalem the Holy, which during 13 centuries has been the second religious site of Moslems, and the first for Christians, has until now been protected by Turkish soldiers, striving for general unity under the shadow of the Ottoman Sultanate. The Turkish soldiers shall resist to the last soul against the enemy who is trespassing against these blessed sites. We shall not desist from the use of everything necessary for the protection of the kingdom. Therefore let everyone rest assured as to the order and discipline of the Ottoman soldiery. "The victory is for God".

I enjoin the inhabitants of Jerusalem, without distinction of race and creed, to act according to the following rules:

Firstly. Those who are in difficulties as to necessaries of livelihood, and from the fighting, shall present themselves immediately to the places which local government shall appoint.

Secondly. For the protection of the life of the fortress, if it is necessary, I shall make levies on the inhabitants, and provisions besides.

Thirdly. I ask of the habitants that they be calm and orderly more than customary.

Fourthly. Whoever does not carry a pass from the military commander is prohibited from leaving the house at night.

Fifthly. Those who will disobey my orders shall be taken speedily to the martial court which will administer the laws in regard to them.

My respected compatriots: Remain true to your country, and subject to the given orders. It is necessary that you respect me as the chief commander guarding your rights, but those who act contrariwise, be it known to you, that their punishment shall follow immediately, with absolute and speedy orders from a commander jealous for his military honor and self-respect in many battles.
 

Commander of all Jerusalem and its Surroundings,

And the Twentieth Division,

Colonel Ali Fuad

 

 

No guarantees, but it is very likely to be that poster that was taken down by the EEF soldiers and replaced by Allenby's proclamation after the fall of Jerusalem.

 

Eran

Edited 25 October , 2016 by Eran Tearosh