Kosturino battlefield

[MartinWills]

Has this thread completely disappeared??

The Index says that there are posts, but I cannot see them.

[MartinWills]

I would like to make it clear that despite what it says on the Salonika - and & the Balkans page that I did not start this thread; AndyR did with some excellent graphics to which I had merely added an annotated map - somethng of a labour of love and which has now been lost.

[AndyR]

Hi

Trying again!

I’m always been confused by the descriptions of the Kosturino battlefield and struggle with the maps which just seem to be a mass of contours.

I’ve tried to use Google Earth to help me get some idea of where the various locations are and how they relate to each other.

The maps I’ve used come from Orange, Green and Khaki (Tom Johnstone), Under the Devil’s Eye (Alan Wakefield & Simon Moody), and from Military Operations Macedonia: From the Outbreak of War to Spring 1917 (Captain Cyril Falls)

The codes I’ve used on the overlays are:

Hills - CS (Crete Simonet), CR (Crete Rivet), RP (Rocky Peak), 850 (Hill 850), HH (Hill of Howth)

Irish - 7RDF (7th Royal Dublin Fusiliers), 7RMF (7th Royal Munster Fusiliers), 5C (5th Connaught Rangers), 10H (10th Hampshires), 5RIF (5th Royal Irish Fusiliers), 5RInF (5th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers), 6RIF (6th Royal Irish Fusiliers)

Places - K (Kosturino), Ka (Kajali), O (Ormanli), DL (Dor Lombos), P (Prsten), M (Memesli), T (Tatarli), C (Calkali), D (Dedeli)

Ravines - K-R Rav (Kajali-Rabrovo ravine), M-P-C Rav (Memesli-Prsten-Calkali ravine)

I hope I’m not too far out with locations and I’d welcome pointers to where I may well have got things wrong (Kajali? Hill of Howth? 5RIF/5RInF?), particularly from those who’ve been there!

Elevated ‘views’ from above the areas of Crete Simonet, Kajali and Memesli hopefully give a good impression of the overall positions

AndyR

[AndyR]

The next show the importance of Rocky Peak which dominated the Irish positions and enfiladed the 10th Hants & 5th Connaughts

[AndyR]

From the Bulgarian side:

first the initial attack on Rocky Peak from hill 850

and second the attack against the 5th Connaughts and 10th Hants from the Hill of Howth

The ‘view’ from above Kosturino gives a good view of the dead ground in the bottom of the valley, the gullies approaching the Irish trenches, and the dead ground a 100 yards or so in front of the trenches

[AndyR]

The fallback line is shown from an elevated view above Dedeli

‘Views’ from Prsten and Dor Lombos give an impression of the ravine which the Bulgarians used to outflank the 30th Brigade and led to the withdrawal to Dedeli

Hope they're of interest!

AndyR

[apwright]

Great stuff, Andy!

I'm so glad your maps didn't disappear for good, as I only managed to get the briefest of looks on Tuesday before the crash.

Having spent many a happy (hah!) hour trying to overlay the 1:50000 and 1:20000 trench maps over the Macedonian countryside on Google Earth - as I suspect Martin has too - the one thing I've learned is not to get too hung up on matching the village locations, because more often than not they have moved in the meantime. Or rather, they were destroyed in the Balkan/World Wars and then rebuilt at a slightly different location for whatever reason - closer to the road, on flatter/more fertile land, etc.

Memešli, for instance, appears to be further west now than it's marked on the map (1:50,000 Valandovo section). From the contour lines, it looks like Memešli used to be on the western slope of the ravine, about 450m beyond the present village. Its present location seems to be about where the "White House" is marked on the OH map. (I wonder if that really is our friend Mehmed's house...), just behind the right flank of 5/RIrF's position - exactly as in your 3rd pic.

GE coordinates for Kajali: 41.3338 22.6315

Adrian

[AndyR]

Adrian

Thanks – I thought from the maps I probably had Kajali too far East – but thought I could make out the remains of some structures at the road junction where I’d marked it – but your position makes more sense and is at the other road junction.

Thanks also for your comments on Memesli – it seemed a long way out on my overlays and your comments explain it. I was a bit worried that as a result I was well out with the positions of the 5RInF and 6RIF and that they were down in the bottom of the ravine or on the steep wooded slopes but that didn’t seem to make sense to me (though from a basis of no military knowledge whatsoever!) and hopefully they were’nt so far different to where I’ve put them. In any case I wasn’t hoping for absolute accuracy but just to be able to get a good impression of the relative positions in the landscape.

Just in case they're of interest here are the three overlays against the maps in Orange, Green & Khaki, Under the Devil's Eye & Falls.

Presumably the ‘Dorsale des 5 arbres’ on the OH map (‘5 tree hill’ in the Record of 5th Connaughts, and perhaps the same as the ‘hill completely bare save for three stunted trees’ which the 7RMFs retired over and were shelled in ‘Orange, Green & Khaki’?) is the ridge with the two quarries now?

I also wonder about the positions of Dollymount (‘1’) and Bray Head (‘2’) as marked on the Devil’s Eye map – it seems to me that the two named hills would be the 5th Connaughts and the 10th Hants positions from the look of the terrain, but I can’t find a description that links units to hills (I’ve managed to mislay my copy of Devil’s Eye at the moment !?). I’m sure Alan & Simon will be right but what is the basis for locating them where they are on the map?

Thanks

Andy

[AndyR]

As a slight aside it seems to me from my overlays that the often used photograph, Q062966, of Infantry manning part of the 10th (Irish) Division's line on Kosturino Ridge in Serbia, December 1915 is of the right hand end of the 10th Hants trenches rather than 5th Connaughts – does anyone know which it is?

Thanks

Andy

[awakefield]

Andy

This is excellent stuff.

In reply to our positioning of Dollymount and Brayhead - Simon and I were reliant to two sketch maps found in a couple of War Diaries at Kew (can't remember units / formations off the top of my head). We used info from these as well as that in the OH. None of the maps totally agree with each other. At the time we did not have access to the proper 1918 map, which we do now. Looking at all these sources again, and having visited the area a number of times, I would now slightly review my map in any subsequent edition of UTDE - if I get a chance! I'd really like to spend a couple of days in the area having a detailed walk of the ground but I'm usually leading a tour with quite tight time schedules. Mind you, the plan for May 2012 is to climb Rocky Peak.

ALAN

[awakefield]

Andy

Re photo Q 62966 - this is the only one taken at KJosturino and held by the IWM that was not taken by Lt Col Jourdain. The caption we have for the image says no more than we used in the book - no unit ID.

ALAN

[AndyR]

Thanks for the pointer Alan - I need to spend a day at Kew sometime - but from Newcastle it means an overnight stop for me. The fact that the photo's not by Jourdain makes it more credible that it's not the Connaughts, but it would be nice to able to confirm it's the Hants.

I'll be interested to hear which route you take up Rocky Peak - the easiest approach is presumably via Ormanli (no man’s land) but presumably troops and supplies went up from the gully side – looks steep! The only account (Knott) I’ve seen gives very little info (starting from Tatarli mosque which was being used as a hospital):

‘Had a march towards Rocky Peak, our first line, practising carrying patients on mules. The journey was exceedingly rough and I can only pity any sufferer on his journey, first up a steep rocky hill, then down into a valley, then up again to within sight of Memisli and half a mile from the frontier of Bulgaria.’

Sounds much like the start of the route is probably the same as you, Rockdoc (thread ‘Record of my visit’) et al took. I'm interested because I know my grandfather took the same route too.

‘The Boy with the Guns’ (George W Taylor) gives a very interesting account of Kosturino from a different perspective to others I’ve read and with some nice details. In particular it refers to a Butler’s Road:

“C” battery had made a road from Calkali to Kajali, called after their O.C., “Butler's Road,” and they now went into a position by Kajali, where they were for twelve days, with written orders not to fire, as they were to be a surprise for the Bulgars should they attack, notwithstanding the fact that they had reported that whilst only 1200 yards behind our trenches, they had 4000 yards of “bad ground” in front of them.

“B” came into action to the right of Butler's Road where it crosses the spur of Crete Simoni, and were later joined by “D” there, whilst we, “A,” came into action further back by the side of Calkali.

Our O.P. on Crete Simoni was some two and a half miles in front of the battery, which was tucked away behind a wood, and to a flank.

It was a stiff journey up to our O.P along “Butler's Road,” all boulders, then through a ravine and up the sheer side of Crete Simoni.

I guess this refers to the same route again. He includes a hand sketch from the outpost on Crete Simonet – see attached together with the GE ‘view’ from the top of Crete Simonet (sorry it’s two stuck together so there’s some duplication is centre foreground - and as usual with me I don't think it's from quite the right place but it gives a pretty good match).

Andy

[MartinWills]

Great stuff, Andy!

I'm so glad your maps didn't disappear for good, as I only managed to get the briefest of looks on Tuesday before the crash.

Having spent many a happy (hah!) hour trying to overlay the 1:50000 and 1:20000 trench maps over the Macedonian countryside on Google Earth - as I suspect Martin has too - the one thing I've learned is not to get too hung up on matching the village locations, because more often than not they have moved in the meantime. Or rather, they were destroyed in the Balkan/World Wars and then rebuilt at a slightly different location for whatever reason - closer to the road, on flatter/more fertile land, etc.

Memešli, for instance, appears to be further west now than it's marked on the map (1:50,000 Valandovo section). From the contour lines, it looks like Memešli used to be on the western slope of the ravine, about 450m beyond the present village. Its present location seems to be about where the "White House" is marked on the OH map. (I wonder if that really is our friend Mehmed's house...), just behind the right flank of 5/RIrF's position - exactly as in your 3rd pic.

GE coordinates for Kajali: 41.3338 22.6315

Adrian

I have struggled with the position on Memesli on the trench map for Valandovo. The top end of the village seems about right and ties with the location of the remaining trench lines there but not entirely with the open area at the entrance to the village. One has to bear in mind that the map is not necessarily as accurate as one might expect from (say) modern UK OS mapping. I suspect the usual route up to Rocky Peak was from these trench lines (which would provide some cover)though they also look over towards Dorol Oba. The problem I have is reconciling the map contours with the actuality of the area.

Around Kajali there are two aspects of particular interest. There was a church there although it may have been in ruins by 1915 - and the village either partly or totally abandoned by then. Today there are just a few scattered stones. The church had a cemetery (now seemingly lost) and there was a cemetery used during the campaign near here which may have been between Crete Rivet and Crete Simonet. Local tales indicate that this battlefield cemetery remains uncleared and is totally unmarked though the ground there allegedly has a different feel to it. There are the remains of French prepared defensive positions in this area.

Memesli has the air of an Ottoman farm village and Tatarli is very much a Turkish enclave and Turkish speaking village which hosts a lively international sport and folk music/dance festival in May.

One has to remember that between around 1880 and 1924 much of what is now Northern Greece and southern FYROM/Macedonia (once Serbia)was the subject of much unrest and the Balkan wars and communities were swept away, cleared or abandoned often more than once and names also changed reflecting the resident cultures and nationalities at varied points in time.

Some of the tracks in the area have also been affected by modern quarrying and the production of lime using 18th & 19th century techniques - updated with the use of tyres instead of coal as fuel. Imagine the smell downwind - well - perhaps not!!

[Jonathan Saunders]

I think I missed this first time round. Fascinating!

[AndyR]

Hi,

I keep returning to this every so often, and would be interested if anyone can resolve a couple of things for me.

The Jourdain photos on IWM show two views from the battalion HQ bivouac of the 5th Connaught Rangers. Although taken a few days apart they seem to overlap by about 10%.

The left hand photo is Q 55130 (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205022585 )

The right is Q 55138 (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205024025 )

After playing on GE I feel sure they are taken from near the “field” south of the western quarry near GE 41°20'28.32" N 22°37'39.04" E and looking pretty much due West as per the attached GE image.

Not only do the hills in the distance on both images look right, but local features do too (e.g. path from centre to mid right seems to be present on the right hand photo, and on the left photo the local dip in the foreground from bottom left to centre is present – it’s easier to see on GE than on this image!).

Can anyone confirm that this is the right location or believe that the camp was somewhere else?

The second question relates to some trench line that I think may be visible on GE. I’m probably imagining it as trenches were very hard to dig (may be old French trenches or from another conflict?), but I’m not sure what else it might be in the vicinity of GE 41°20'34.29" N 22°38'03.92" E. The line seems to wiggle just below the crest and is more or less horizontal across the centre of the image which is looking WSW. The right hand end of the line (as shown on the image) is where I suggested in post #11 that Q 62966 (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205088298 ) was taken from.

Any thoughts? Imagination?

Thanks

AndyR

[KGB]

There is a cross in Rabrovo (Robrovo?) to the 10th Irish Division and it is in a bit of a state, a worthy cause for National Lottery funds n'est pas?

[Kate Wills]

The 10th Division cross is in good order, certainly when we were there last May.

Are you perhaps confusing this with the badly eroded 22nd Div memorial near Doiran, which was replaced a couple of years ago?

[KGB]

The 10th Division cross is in good order, certainly when we were there last May.

Are you perhaps confusing this with the badly eroded 22nd Div memorial near Doiran, which was replaced a couple of years ago?

22 Dvn was not Irish and I was told there was a cross in Macedonia in disrepair? As you know the area can I ask "Did Irish troops get into Bulgaria at all before 1918?"

[keithmroberts]

The !0th Division cross in May 2011.

keith

[KGB]

The !0th Division cross in May 2011.

keith

Thanks Keith, I just Googled and read an article by an Irish guy researching this. Do you know if Irish troops made it across into Bulgaria in 1915/16?

[AndyR]

Don't think so - right up to the border (positions at 7th Dec) - it looks like 'frontier house' is annotated on the sketch on post #14

Andy

[KGB]

Don't think so - right up to the border (positions at 7th Dec) - it looks like 'frontier house' is annotated on the sketch on post #14

Andy

That looks like "Big" Bulgaria 1912-1919 Macedonia today quite a bit bigger than then, the frontier has retreated, still, main thing is, no Irish troops fought inside Bulgaria before 1918!

[awakefield]

From memory I don't think the lines held by 10th (Irish) Division crossed into Bulgaria. However, from reading the diary of Capt Noel Drury (6th RDF) it appears that units did patrol in and around Kosturino, which was then in Bulgaria.

As a result of Bulgaria losing the war, some land was given to Serbia (or the newly est Kingdom of Yugoslavia) which included the town of Strumica (where the British reached in September 1918). This area is now part of FYROM.

ALAN

[KGB]

From memory I don't think the lines held by 10th (Irish) Division crossed into Bulgaria. However, from reading the diary of Capt Noel Drury (6th RDF) it appears that units did patrol in and around Kosturino, which was then in Bulgaria.

As a result of Bulgaria losing the war, some land was given to Serbia (or the newly est Kingdom of Yugoslavia) which included the town of Strumica (where the British reached in September 1918). This area is now part of FYROM.

ALAN

Looked at an atlas last night and the border is a bit away but 1915 as you say it was nearer.

[AndyR]

The 1915 borders are the dash-dot lines on the diagram (#23) - Bulgaria at the top and Greece on the right, with Serbia being most of the map area. As Alan says its all now FYROM

Andy