What was a 'signalling parade'?

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Ron,

You may well be right but I don't think my chap had what it takes to be a signaller - having said that, I would love to be wrong but I suspect that if he was a signaller there would be some indication in his service record. Of course, he may have been training to be a signaller but failed to make the grade, in which case I can see they wouldn't bother to make a note. Perhaps I'm wrong: he was in the Dorsetshire Regiment and I have come across two contemporary accounts of how completely disorganised they were.

It would be very useful if someone could write a book about the minutiae of a soldier's life - not about trench life, but about the parades, any business to do with raising and lowering of flags, the training for various occupations, life in barracks and billets and bivouacs etc. etc. (sorry, got a bit carried away with the alliteration there!). Will anyone out there in GWF land take up the challenge? I would be the first person to buy your book.

Kind regards

Teresa

Teresa

Having read the examples others have posted from different regiments and also given the information I found in Dennis's book - which is full of daily minutiae, although of course in a different regiment from your chap - it seems to me that this term is not a mystery at all in the context of the Great War, even though it may be a mystery how that particular chap was chosen to be a signaller (and as you say, he may not have lasted).

Discussion of different meanings of 'signal' and its collocations is a red herring because the term you have found is 'signalling parade' and there's enough evidence that this term was commonly used. It doesn't seem to be anything peculiar to the Dorsetshires. The examples I quoted from Dennis's book exactly illustrate the explanation Ron gave in his #14.

I've only spelled this out because no one has responded since I posted last night and I thought it was a pretty good clincher.

Btw this is probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs but have you read Richard Holmes's Tommy? It doesn't answer this question but has a lot of interesting detail (except he was wrong about Lord Feversham's dog, but that's just a little obsession of mine...).

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

I think its an old fashioned term for an evening flag lowering parade which signalled the end of the military day and not really to do with signallers specifically.

No, the flag lowering ceremony has always been known as 'Retreat' (except in the cavalry where it was for some time known as watch setting). It was usually carried out at sunset for obvious reasons.

[centurion]

No, the flag lowering ceremony has always been known as 'Retreat' (except in the cavalry where it was for some time known as watch setting). It was usually carried out at sunset for obvious reasons.

Always? In any case tattoo is an old word for parade (hence the Edinburgh Tattoo). At one time in some armies (ie the US up to 1868) tattoo also referred to the flag raising if a parade was also involved.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Always? In any case tattoo is an old word for parade (hence the Edinburgh Tattoo). At one time in some armies (ie the US up to 1868) tattoo also referred to the flag raising if a parade was also involved.

But not signalling parade. This is confusing something which need not have been so complicated, I think.

Liz

[Roy Evans]

Extract from “Infantry Training (Part 4 – Company Organization)" Published 1914 by the General Staff, War Office

Section 94.

“1. As soon as the men have learnt how to drill when controlled by word of command, they will be taught how control can be exercised and communication maintained by by means of the signals given below. As a preliminary measure recruits should be formed up as for squad drill with intervals, and made to perform the various signals in unison, the instructor first giving the corresponding word of command or message and demonstrating the manner in which the signal should be made.

2. When controlling men by signal a ‘short blast’ of the whistle will first be blown, on which each man will look towards the instructor, who will then make the signal. When he is satisfied that it is understood, the instructor will drop his hand to the side, on which the men will act as ordered.”

The manual then goes on to describe the various signals employed.

Roy

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Is that called signalling parade, Roy? It sounds like the communication drill Old Tom mentioned in #5.

Liz

[Roy Evans]

Is that called signalling parade, Roy? It sounds like the communication drill Old Tom mentioned in #5.

Liz

No, it's not called anything but they're on parade and they're signalling.

Roy

[FROGSMILE]

Always? In any case tattoo is an old word for parade (hence the Edinburgh Tattoo). At one time in some armies (ie the US up to 1868) tattoo also referred to the flag raising if a parade was also involved.

Yes - "always" and long before the US was a nation let alone had an Army. Tattoo does not mean parade it's etymological origin lies with the Dutch word "taptoe" (meaning (beer) taps off) and over time was modified to taptoo and finally tattoo.

Retreat was and still is at sunset (usually 6.p.m. for practical purposes) and Tattoo is generally at 10.p.m. and in the past corresponded with "lights out" and physical bed checks (by company orderly NCOs) until the slight relaxation of barracks discipline after the termination of conscripted National Service, although it was retained in boys units and other basic training establishments. Both of these events were also mandatory "defaulters parades" and attended by orderly sergeants and orderly officers of the day, in order to check the guard and inspect the presence and chores of the malefactors. The duty bugler sounded 'Last Post' at Retreat and 'Lights Out' at Tattoo. During the former ceremony anyone passing in the vicinity of the guard room had to stand to attention and face the flag if (even if in mufti) and also salute if in uniform. Timings were usually stuck to irrespective of winter, or summer time, for reasons of sheer pragmatism, although originaly they varied according to the natural hours of daylight.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

No, it's not called anything but they're on parade and they're signalling.

Roy

Yes, I see that! but the signals are not signallers' signals, are they...if this were called signalling parade it would solve Teresa's worry that her chap was not educated enough to be a signaller.

But until I learn that this was called 'signalling parade', I've still got my money on the type of parade that we know was given that name - parade for signallers.

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, I see that! but the signals are not signallers' signals, are they...if this were called signalling parade it would solve Teresa's worry that her chap was not educated enough to be a signaller.

But until I learn that this was called 'signalling parade', I've still got my money on the type of parade that we know was given that name - parade for signallers.

Liz

If Roy is talking about Field Signalling Liz it is quite feasible that the men were required to parade at certain times as part of a battalion/company routine to instil in them instant recognition of, and obedience to, the signalled command of their officers and NCOs. Learning was instilled by rote and the term signalling parade need not necessarily relate to the signals section under the signals officer. There was no monopoly over the use and meaning of the word "to signal" and the men's days were related to set routines, of which this was quite likely but one of many.

[tjpatti]

Many thanks for the many informative replies; I read one and think 'yes, that's it!', then read another and change my mind!

I have a feeling that if my chap had qualified as a signaller, it would be mentioned in his fairly comprehensive service record. He was also, in his time at the Front, sent off in working parties for the Royal Engineers and for the Divisional Salvage Company and I would query, in my ignorance, whether the army would detail a trained man to do 'donkey work' (for want of a better expression). I am happy for this theory to be shot down.

Kind regards

Teresa

[Liz in Eastbourne]

If Roy is talking about Field Signalling Liz it is quite feasible that the men were required to parade at cerain times as part of a routine to instil in them instant recognition of, and obedience to, the signalled command of their officers and NCOs. Learning was instilled by rote and the term signalling parade need not necessarily relate to the signals section under the signals officer. There was no monopoly over the use and meaning of the word "to signal" and the men's days were related to set routines, of which this was quite likely but one of many.

Aha! Well, in that case it does solve Teresa's problem, as a distinct possibility for her soldier. I withdraw my money from the specialist option in this case.

Liz

[Terry_Reeves]

I think Liz is absolutely right and has produced the evidence to support it. Don't read too much into simple things.

TR

[tjpatti]

Teresa

Having read the examples others have posted from different regiments and also given the information I found in Dennis's book - which is full of daily minutiae, although of course in a different regiment from your chap - it seems to me that this term is not a mystery at all in the context of the Great War, even though it may be a mystery how that particular chap was chosen to be a signaller (and as you say, he may not have lasted).

Discussion of different meanings of 'signal' and its collocations is a red herring because the term you have found is 'signalling parade' and there's enough evidence that this term was commonly used. It doesn't seem to be anything peculiar to the Dorsetshires. The examples I quoted from Dennis's book exactly illustrate the explanation Ron gave in his #14.

I've only spelled this out because no one has responded since I posted last night and I thought it was a pretty good clincher.

Btw this is probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs but have you read Richard Holmes's Tommy? It doesn't answer this question but has a lot of interesting detail (except he was wrong about Lord Feversham's dog, but that's just a little obsession of mine...).

Liz

Hi Liz,

I have the book but haven't read it yet; I shall bump it up to the top of my 'To read' list and note what you say about Lord Feversham's dog!

Kind regards

Teresa

[FROGSMILE]

Many thanks for the many informative replies; I read one and think 'yes, that's it!', then read another and change my mind!

I have a feeling that if my chap had qualified as a signaller, it would be mentioned in his fairly comprehensive service record. He was also, in his time at the Front, sent off in working parties for the Royal Engineers and for the Divisional Salvage Company and I would query, in my ignorance, whether the army would detail a trained man to do 'donkey work' (for want of a better expression). I am happy for this theory to be shot down.

Kind regards

Teresa

Teresa such working parties were the lot and bane of every infantryman, trained or not. I do recommend to you the late professor Richard Holmes's book "Tommy", it explains all aspects of a soldier's life in an interesting and exceedingly comprehensive way (as mentioned already by Liz).

[tjpatti]

Teresa such working parties were the lot and bane of every infantryman, trained or not. I do recommend to you the late professor Richard Holmes book "Tommy", it explains all aspects of a soldier's life in an interesting and exceedingly comprehensive way (as mentioned already by Liz).

As luck would have it, I finished a book last night so I shall start 'Tommy' tonight. Thanks, Liz and Frogsmile, for the recommendation.

Kind regards

Teresa

[truthergw]

I'd just add that working parties might well have a signaller along as a signaller.

[tjpatti]

Actually, Tom, I hadn't thought of that but it makes sense. Thanks!

Kind regards

Teresa

[tjpatti]

If you do a google search for "signalling parade" with quotes it brings up a couple of other diaries as well as a number of specific parades for the SVR (Singapore Volunteer Rifles?) advertised in the Singapore Times

Hello all

I followed Nigel's advice and came up with two diaries which specifically mention 'signalling parade' - one was the aforementioned Australian's, the other belonged to Pte Alf Wallis of the King's Royal Regiment Corps. In both cases, the soldiers were signallers. I realise that two is hardly sufficient to be regarded as a representative sample but I am revising my opinion of my chap and wonder if he was more educated than I thought - presumably you have to be able to read and write to be considered suitable as a signaller so perhaps the fact that the recruiting officer signed the attestation papers on the soldier's behalf reflects more on the zeal of the recruiting officer than the illiteracy of the recruit.

Extracts from Alf's diary:

Thursday 30 September 1915

I returned to the signallers today.

Friday 1st October 1915

In the morning we have flag signalling, in the afternoon the buzzer. I can't hardly read at all now, out of practice I suppose.

Saturday 2 October 1915

Had an easy morning doing visual signalling with lamp and telescope. In the afternoon the Sigs played the Transport. Beat them 3-1.

Friday 16th March 1917

Physical jerks at 6.40 with a second parade at 8.45 with the company. We then did a signalling parade until 12.40.

Saturday 17th March 1917

Today was very similar to yesterday, the same parades.

Thursday April [19th] 1917

Nothing else on except signalling parade which was enjoyable, which was just before dinner.

Friday April [20th] 1917

Long distance signalling. Nice day, finished for the day at 12.30 p.m.

Kind regards and many thanks to all who contributed replies to this post.

Teresa

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello all

I followed Nigel's advice and came up with two diaries which specifically mention 'signalling parade' - one was the aforementioned Australian's, the other belonged to Pte Alf Wallis of the King's Royal Regiment Corps. In both cases, the soldiers were signallers. I realise that two is hardly sufficient to be regarded as a representative sample but I am revising my opinion of my chap and wonder if he was more educated than I thought - presumably you have to be able to read and write to be considered suitable as a signaller so perhaps the fact that the recruiting officer signed the attestation papers on the soldier's behalf reflects more on the zeal of the recruiting officer than the illiteracy of the recruit.

.....

Teresa

Hello Teresa

It was because of these, which I looked at too after Nigel's post, as well as my own example which also specifically uses the term 'signalling parade' and describes what they did on it (GV Dennis, also King's Royal Rifle Corps) that I thought the evidence so far gathered was strongly in favour of this being a parade for signallers. You've actually got more than two in your sample and from different regiments.

In fact I didn't think about the attestation papers hard enough when you first posted - they were generally (always?) filled in by the recruiting officer; if you're sure he also signed on behalf of the recruit that seems odd but others may know comparable examples. The signallers in 21/KRRC were certainly reasonably educated - GV Dennis was a trainee teacher.

Liz

[Tyrim]

Liz,

I've found two different attestation forms in my Grandfather's records. They both look to be "original" and include the same information but there are clear differences between the two. Perhaps in the world before photocopiers a little forgery was acceptable.

tyrim

[Dragon]

Is there any possibility that what you are asking about is something like this?

This is a postcard in my collection, posted in 1905. I can't make complete sense of the sender's message as it's half in Franglais. Evidently he or she didn't want the postman snooping.

If this is way off, I'll delete the post.

Gwyn

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Is there any possibility that what you are asking about is something like this?This is a postcard in my collection, posted in 1905. I can't make complete sense of the sender's message as it's half in Franglais. Evidently he or she didn't want the postman snooping.

.......

What a wonderful picture, Gwyn - though a bit earlier.

Could it be what Roy was suggesting might be the 'signalling parade' in his #30, i e a non-specialists' parade for practising communications? Or is it definitely specialist signallers?

EDIT The latter, I guess - just checked my 21/KRRC source GV Dennis and he says they were nicknamed the Flagwaggers as well as the Iddy -Umptiers from the way they remembered the letters. Of course - the signallers' badge was crossed flags, too...

So this is them Flagwagging!

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Liz,

I've found two different attestation forms in my Grandfather's records. They both look to be "original" and include the same information but there are clear differences between the two. Perhaps in the world before photocopiers a little forgery was acceptable.

tyrim

Hi Tyrim

Were the signatures the same, though? Or in the handwriting of the rest of the attestations?

Liz

[Tyrim]

Liz,

It's very hard to tell. The handwriting is very close but many of the letters are shaped just a bit differently or are in a different position on the line and there are notations on one that are not on the other. Since the paper was damaged in the bombing each has different pieces missing or is spotted in different places and they have different microfilm numbers so it isn't simple a more recent copy of the original sheet. Oddly, one can be enlarged easily while the other pixilates very quickly making it more difficult to compare. I don't know whether they were duplicates made out at the same time or they are very good copies.

tyrim