THREAT TO HMS CRESSY HMS HOGUE AND HMS ABOUKIR

[centurion]

I used to work for a company involved in nuclear measurement instrumentation and certain laboratories & facilities which were involved in ultra-sensistive radiation measurements (those where the effects of the normal, everday background levels need to be minimised because it has a significant effect and will comprimise the results) needed - still do - to use steel made pre the use & testing of nuclear weapons. This Wikpedia link gives the basics Click.

I have always understood, and this appears to be backed up (although, obviously not confirmed) by the article, that the steel from the scuppered German fleet at Scapa Flow was the primary source for such material; unlike British vessels there, as there were no deaths involved (?), they would not be considered as War Graves, so there are not the same moral issues with their use. My involvement with this type of equipment ended nearly twenty years ago, so I suppose it's possible that the salvageable German fleet steel 'stock' may have all been used, although, as Centurion has already said, the requirement is low, so I would have thought that that's rather unlikely. The Steel doesn't have to be from Scapa Flow, any sunken vesssel which has been built from pre-late WWII steel could be used, its just it's relatively easy - at least as far as any such operation goes - to salvage from there.

Aberdeen - 'the Granite City' (that's why) - is another location well known for having higher background radiation levels.

NigelS

Thinking on this, Swedish Iron Ore is ever ever so very slightly radio active - minutely so - much less than granite. However German steel tended to be made from Swedish ore and if modern standards require steel in such environments to be even cleaner than before then perhaps Scapa Flow scrap is no longer suitable in some instances. Nevertheless the volume of steel needed would be very small and British waters are full of pre 1945 wrecks whose location is well known and which are not war graves so there is still no excuse. Clean steel can be made from scratch with the right ore and techniques but it would be more expensive than salvage.

The most dangerous place to live in the UK is probably a badly ventilated Cornish basement flat with with wrong kind of concrete for floor and walls as Radon Gas can accumulate there. Radon is believed to be the root cause of between 1,000 and 2,000 deaths pa in the UK. Possibly the reason Aberdeen is built of granite was the hope by the canny burghers that the inhabitants would start to glow in the dark and save on street lighting saving many a mickle.

[grantowi]

is incomprehensible as HMS Royal Oak, which sank in the same waters with a similar loss of life, is rightly classed as a war grave and diving on it is strictly controlled.

Diving HMS Royal Oak is Banned,

Navy divers go down once a year on the date of her sinking to raise the flag

, but it is obviously too much to expect bodies like the Ministry of Defence or the government to show much interest.

Then they would have to give back the money they got for selling them

Grant

[grantowi]

then perhaps Scapa Flow scrap is no longer suitable in some instances.

They were still taking chunks of the 13" armour plating from Scapa in 2002

Grant

[muckandbullets]

This is all interesting reading on this thread, once again you never stop learning in life.

Thanks for the sad story and photos of the sunken cruisers .

Regards MN

[centurion]

They were still taking chunks of the 13" armour plating from Scapa in 2002

Grant

I did say "some instances" and a lot can change in ten years.

[grantowi]

I did say "some instances" and a lot can change in ten years.

I was just confirming that in 2002 they were still using the ships as a source

Chill out man, it's Sunday

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Marshal Ney,

You are correct, and pleased you enjoyed the photographs of the 3 cruisers, which gives proper meaning rather than referring to them just as salvage! 1,459 British sailors were lost that morning.

[MichaelBully]

Thank you for posting the images. Appreciated. I have been reading what I can on the HMS Cressy, HMS Hogue and HMS Aboukir.

The way I am looking at this thread, it is accepted that the MoD do not have any current say in what happens to the wrecks as the Department sold them.

. If so , then really the only way forward would be is to request that the Dutch government intervene.

In turn , I think that we have to establish what we are asking the Dutch authorities to consider. Accepting that they wrecks are war graves and banning scrap merchants along with divers who want to look at the wrecks OR banning scrap merchants but accept that there are divers who want to explore but mean no disrespect. as opposed to 'sport divers' ? How enforceable is a diving ban ?

I would like to help in anyway I can but feel that we need to get something clear worked out.

Regards

Michael Bully

[grantowi]

. as opposed to 'sport divers' ?

It was "sport divers" who kicked off the demand for the protection of the wrecks in the first place

Grant

[MichaelBully]

Yes that's why we need to work out exactly what we are asking for before we start approaching the authorities. Some Great War devotees seem to oppose diving on such wrecks.

Are we going to request a ban on scrap merchants taking metal from the wrecks, but not raise any concerns about divers ?

It was "sport divers" who kicked off the demand for the protection of the wrecks in the first place

Grant

[Simon Mills]

I have a little experience when it comes to shipwrecks, and you need to keep a few pointers in mind when writing to the authorities.

The first thing is that even though a ship may have been sunk during WWI or WWII with loss of life, if it's not listed by name in the UK Protection of Military Remains Act (1986) then it is questionable as to what you can do until it is actually included. In addition, the Act is not retrospective, so if the wreck was sold by the government into private ownership prior to 1986 then there is little that anyone can do except politely ask the current owners to treat the site with the respect that it deserves.

When it comes to sport divers most diving agencies have a "look but don't touch" policy, but inevitably there will always be a number of rogue divers who will give little thought to ripping a bell off a mast when they see one. However, how you patrol this kind of thing is another matter. I seem to recall that back in 2001 the UK Receiver of Wreck had a three-month divers' amnesty, during which 4,616 reports were filed, covering something in the region of 30,000 items that had been illegally retrieved and landed.

If the people who are working the wrecks of the Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy actually have legal title to them then I'm afraid that there is nothing that any government can do.

SM.

[grantowi]

Some Great War devotees seem to oppose diving on such wrecks.

Yeah, I really have trouble getting my head around that one.

Taboo to dive a wreck and have a look

Ok to wander over a battle field picking up souvenirs

Simon,

The wrecks concerned were sold by the British MOD for scrap so the salvage is legal

over 1400 men went down with the three ships

Grant

[Simon Mills]

Simon,

The wrecks concerned were sold by the British MOD for scrap so the salvage is legal

over 1400 men went down with the three ships

Grant

Hello Grant,

Thanks for the clarification. If this is the case then regrettably I don't think that any government can do anything for fear of interfering with someone's legal rights, which could lead them vulnerable to some form of action for compensation by the owner.

I don't know when these three wrecks were sold by HMG, but as far as I am aware there has been a bit of a shift in terms of wreck policy at the MoD since the 1986 Act was passed. I would need to double-check my facts, but I think that in these more modern times they are less inclined to sell a wreck where there was loss of life than they used to be.

Of course, for the Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy, it's probably a bit too late...

S.

[grantowi]

I don't think that any government can do anything for fear of interfering with someone's legal rights, which could lead them vulnerable to some form of action for compensation by the owner.

I think that your right, the only place to appeal is to the good will of the salvage firm, but if the MOD don't care about the dead then I dont think the salvage lot will show too much concern, after all, they have paid for them

Grant

[Simon Mills]

Then I guess that's the way to go...

Incidentally, just to correct a slight misunderstanding about radioactive steel in an earlier post, it is true that much of the German High Seas Fleet has been salvaged for scientific instrumentation and even satellite construction, but it is not due to the background level of radiation in the iron ore.

It has more to do with the atomic age. The production of steel requires large volumes of air, and since August 1945 the atmosphere has been contaminated by the fallout from Hiroshima, Nagasaki and countless other nuclear tests around the world. For instruments that are designed to measure levels of radioactivity this background radiation is a definite drawback, which is why any steel made prior to 1945 is of greater value for use in certain scientific areas.

S.

[grantowi]

, which is why any steel made prior to 1945 is of greater value for use in certain scientific areas.

Would it not also have to been protected, ie underwater, since then as well ?

Grant

[Simon Mills]

I doubt it. Radiation can permeate water just as easily as it can contaminate the air. It's just an issue with the use of air during the steel production process. Maybe it would be possible to decontaminate the air used in the production process (not sure), but I suspect that the large volumes of air required in the industrial production of steel would make the process pretty uneconomic.

S.

[Guest Wgvsr]

I think that this is largely myth. There was (and is still) plenty of natural radiation (especially in the sea). Radon for example washed into it. A recent study of radiation levels in the Irish sea and of exposure to radiation amongst those living around it showed that exposure to natural radiation was more than 9 time higher than artificial radiation (if you live in Cornwall you are certainly receiving a much higher dosage from the granite underneath the ground on which you walk). The reason why steel from the pre 1945 period wrecks might be required is that they have not been exposed to certain minute trace elements produced by nuclear fission. These can confuse some research results. Bowls and instruments made of such 'clean' steel' is sometimes required The amount of 'uncontaminated' steel needed is very small and would not in anyway justify the scale of recovery in this case (and there are plenty of other places that are not war graves where it could be got from.

Didn't a portion of the steel from Cox's fleet at Scapa go for this purpose ?

Bill

[muckandbullets]

Just a slight tangent and in no way do I wish any Jonah mishaps, but does anybody know what happens if say

(a)The, Salvage company accidentally set off ammunition. Surely there must be some control when ammunition is involved whether in international or home waters.

( Unlicenced Jack of all trade master of none divers. Ammunition again.

Regards shipmates

MN

[muckandbullets]

Cant get rid of that smiley face tried once, that's ment to be B

MN

[grantowi]

When they salvaged the HMS Edinburgh (WW2wreck), they just dumped the shells over the side of the wreck.

The cordite used to propel the shells is pretty harmless whilst it's wet

Grant

[muckandbullets]

When they salvaged the HMS Edinburgh (WW2wreck), they just dumped the shells over the side of the wreck.

The cordite used to propel the shells is pretty harmless whilst it's wet

Grant

Hi Grant,

Does that include its safe if in contact with underwater cutting torches?

MN

[grantowi]

Does that include its safe if in contact with underwater cutting torches?

Cordite would proberly be alright, we recovered some to play with, took nearly a month to dry out to the stage where it could be lit.

Divers on the Edinburgh were wary about where they were cutting, so Im thinking a shell and cutting torch mix wouldn't be a good one

Grant

[ph0ebus]

Grant,

Perhaps they will circumvent that problem by employing the salvage methods used by Risdon Beazley on Great War wrecks in the 1950s: blow the whole thing with remote charges and scrape up the shiny bits from what is left.

Daniel

[muckandbullets]

Cordite would proberly be alright, we recovered some to play with, took nearly a month to dry out to the stage where it could be lit.

Divers on the Edinburgh were wary about where they were cutting, so Im thinking a shell and cutting torch mix wouldn't be a good one

Grant

Yes Grant,

I see what you mean. I would not expect an experienced diver/salvage to go anywhere near a shell with a cutter. But if for any reason, accidentally or unknown position, he did ,then unless Poseidon was protecting him then ---------

MN