the "mushroom

[laurent59]

Hello,

I would like know some information on a place with the name "the mushroom" into the British first line in Wez-Macquart, (between Houplines and Bois-Grenier) near Armentières. Just ahead this position there are big craters. Does somebody know by who, how and when this position was began ? What was this position and what was those craters and who made them.

I would like too know what is the name of the farm in yellow on the map, because I can't read it complet.

below, the map

[laurent59]

thank you if you can help me

kind regards

Laurent

[Pavster1980]

Hello

Not knowing anything about this I would guess the craters are from underground explosions from explosives in tunnels, but this is just a guess. I'm sure someone more knowlegeable in the forum will be along soon.

Rich

[jacksdad]

Hi

This is 'Pigots Farm' altough here it is spelt 'Piggots'

the next one south is Pear tree farm and the Chards Farm.

Pear tree farm was a divisional boundary when the NZers were stationed here.

On a fine clear night on the 1st July 1916 the 81 New Zealanders (Wellington Regt) lead by Cap McColl made an attack on the German trenches here, McColl was killed after the raid was over - on discovering that two of his men lay wounded in No Mans land - he went out and brought them in, being wounded in the process and died shortly after

i have a map of the area which i can email you if needed, dated 1916, the map shows the two craters as well. but i do not know how they got there.

An interest side line is that both sides, at the mushroom, because the trenches were so close here, used to put up signs to communicate to each other and toss bully beef over as well.

[Chris_Baker]

173rd Tunnelling Company of the Royal Engineers was active in this area in 1915. It might be worth looking at their war diary to see if there is anything that would explain the craters. Unforunately it is not one of the diaries I have.

[laurent59]

Thank you for your help,

Me too, I think the two craters are from underground explosion by tunnels. But in this area, the water is just under the ground's level, and many account tell that when the soldiers dug two feet deep, they are in the water. So I think that the tunnels was began in summer 1915. It's very possible that the 173 tunnelling Coy of R.E. who had began this position in 1915 and I will search for the diary.

Thank you too, Roger, for your very interresting informations. It's wonderful for me to have some information and history on soldiers who are buried in Cité Bonjean Cemetery in Armentières, like the Captain Mc Coll.

But for the French what I am. Does sombody can tell me what is "Pigot" and "Chard" in translation in French please, because I don't find it in my dictionary.

Laurent

[truthergw]

Thank you for your help,

Me too, I think the two craters are from underground explosion by tunnels. But in this area, the water is just under the ground's level, and many account tell that when the soldiers dug two feet deep, they are in the water. So I think that the tunnels was began in summer 1915. It's very possible that the 173 tunnelling Coy of R.E. who had began this position in 1915 and I will search for the diary.

Thank you too, Roger, for your very interresting informations. It's wonderful for me to have some information and history on soldiers who are buried in Cité Bonjean Cemetery in Armentières, like the Captain Mc Coll.

But for the French what I am. Does sombody can tell me what is "Pigot" and "Chard" in translation in French please, because I don't find it in my dictionary.

Laurent

This is a complicated story and requires reading one of the books on the underground war but in fact, the British were able to overcome the difficulties of mining in the area.

[KevinBattle]

Laurent, in respect of Pigot/Piggot and Chard Farms, they are most likely named after officers in command of units serving there.

I don't think they are the "original" Farm names; maybe a modern map may show what the farms are now known as (and perhaps before WW1).

"Chard" is also a vegetable (Swiss Chard) with edible leaves, perhaps they were growing in profusion there from pre war crops?

I'm not aware of Pigot or Piggott being anything other than a family surname.

[laurent59]

For the names of those three farms, I had translated "Pear tree farm" (ferme des poiriers) and "Chards farm" (ferme des betteraves). Again today, there is many cultivation of chards on those fields.

But for the "Pigott farm", it's very possible that is the name of an Officer who died on this place.

Indeed, the Lieutenant PIGOTT, Eric, John, Keele, Pemberton, 1st Bn, Royal Irish Regiment died 24 June 1915, age 24, is buried in the "Houplines communal cemetery extension, where the graves were regrouped after the war from little cemeteries (ferme Philippeaux British cemetery Houplines, the communal cemetery, the Houplines old military cemetery, etc...).

Perhaps that the Lieutenant PIGOTT was killed on this place and gave his name to the farm. It's very possible because it's exactly the same sector.

I'll try to search in this direction.

Laurent

[jacksdad]

well done Laurent

[Chris_Baker]

Good work Laurent. Chard is also used as an English surname. I cannot see any officers of that name who died in the same area, but it is possible that a man's name was used for the farm.

[towisuk]

Hi Laurent, the symbols on this trench map from 'Linesman' are for fortified mine craters, the map is from early 1916. but as you can see the Germans have occupied the craters with a series of trenches that run back to their lines. The craters are in the middle of no-mans land, so were they blown deliberately to offer forward observation posts to offset the British bulge into the line with the 'mushroom'??

regards

Tom

[laurent59]

Thank all,

Here are some informations about the farm's names in the army sector.

Originaly, the farms was often called by the farmer's surname, or the old name of the place where it was located. During the war, the British army recalled many farms or roads along the front line. The names was given sometime because of the first unit in place (gunners farm's, Irish avenue...) or because of an event (dead cow farm, dead dog road...) or the name of commonwealth country (Mullewa railway...) or cultivation in place (chards farm, pear tree farm...) and at last the name of an Officer who died or commanded on this place (Hobbs farm, Pigott farm, Chards farm ?...)

Tom, your map is wonderful !

we can see that it's very possible that the craters are German work for offset the British bulge.

But perhaps that the craters was created by British underground explosion by tunnel for create the "mushroom" and that the German use those craters after ?

That would be very interesting to have some account on this event.

is there another crater in this nearly sector ?

Laurent

[towisuk]

Thank all,

Here are some informations about the farm's names in the army sector.

Originaly, the farms was often called by the farmer's surname, or the old name of the place where it was located. During the war, the British army recalled many farms or roads along the front line. The names was given sometime because of the first unit in place (gunners farm's, Irish avenue...) or because of an event (dead cow farm, dead dog road...) or the name of commonwealth country (Mullewa railway...) or cultivation in place (chards farm, pear tree farm...) and at last the name of an Officer who died or commanded on this place (Hobbs farm, Pigott farm, Chards farm ?...)

Tom, your map is wonderful !

we can see that it's very possible that the craters are German work for offset the British bulge.

But perhaps that the craters was created by British underground explosion by tunnel for create the "mushroom" and that the German use those craters after ?

That would be very interesting to have some account on this event.

is there another crater in this nearly sector ?

Laurent

Hi Laurent, those are the only two craters I can see on that, and adjoining trenchmaps, so they weren't in what was recognised as a particularly busy part of the front line for mining activities...

regards

Tom

[laurent59]

Today, I had confirmation by a farmer, that there was some tunnels under the field in "the mushroom" area. Indeed, there about twenty years ago, the farmer emptied five cubic meter of soil to fill the collapse of a tunnel in his field. He said they were about four meters deep. What great work to dig tunnels in soil that is almost at the nearby river ! I think the men were constantly pumping water in drainage ditches. What effort for those men !

In the same area there was a place called "Sally Port".

Someone could tell me where was this position and the trench 88 ? (place where the Captain McColl N.Z.E.F. was killed in July 3 1915.

Thank

Laurent

[connaughtranger]

In August 1915 Pear Tree Farm was simply known as the Ruined House. It was probably an OP from which a 2nd Army Panorama was produced looking towards Wez Macquart

Regards

Martin

[laurent59]

In August 1915 Pear Tree Farm was simply known as the Ruined House. It was probably an OP from which a 2nd Army Panorama was produced looking towards Wez Macquart

Regards

Martin

thank you very much Martin,

I would like see a map from early 1915 for see if the two big craters are on it. Perhaps, when the unit change in a sector, the names of places change too ?

regards

Laurent

[Guest MlleArmentieres]

Hi Laurent, the symbols on this trench map from 'Linesman' are for fortified mine craters, the map is from early 1916. but as you can see the Germans have occupied the craters with a series of trenches that run back to their lines. The craters are in the middle of no-mans land, so were they blown deliberately to offer forward observation posts to offset the British bulge into the line with the 'mushroom'??

regards

Tom

456a.jpg

Hi Tom

Thanks for posting this map up - would you be able to let me know where it's sourced from? I'm doing some research into this area and would love to find out more.

Many thanks!

[laurent59]

Wow!!! MlleArmentieres!!!! the Tourism Office of Armentieres tourism is therefore on this forum now!!! I hope you will not use the informations from this forum for commercial purposes as you have done with the informations I had given you with confidence!

Shame on you !

Laurent

[Guest MlleArmentieres]

Bonjour Laurent

There must be some misunderstanding. I am not the Armentieres Tourism Office nor have I received any information from you. My great-grandfather, William Jolly, served in the Armentieres sector in 1916 and I would like to see a wider trench map of that sector from that year.

[towisuk]

Hi Tom

Thanks for posting this map up - would you be able to let me know where it's sourced from? I'm doing some research into this area and would love to find out more.

Many thanks!

Hi, sorry I've taken so long to get back to you...the map is from "linesman digital mapping", an excellent package for a ww1 enthusiast...

regards

Tom

[nigelcave]

In the same area there was a place called "Sally Port".

Someone could tell me where was this position and the trench 88 ? (place where the Captain McColl N.Z.E.F. was killed in July 3 1915.

Thank

Laurent

Just noticed how old this post is: however, probably better late than never. A couple of things: a sally port was an exit from a castle (or extensive defensive position, but most closely associated with a fortified structure) out of which parties could go to raid a besieging army ... or that's the theory: hence the expression to 'sally forth'.

Puzzled by Capt McColl NZEF - quick check shows that you must have had a slip of the finger, as the year of his death should be 1916.

[towisuk]

And from a site that has been available to the public for a fair while now.............

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=50.6720&lon=2.9120&layers=101464966

regards

Tom

[The Scorer]

Laurent, in respect of Pigot/Piggot and Chard Farms, they are most likely named after officers in command of units serving there.

I don't think they are the "original" Farm names; maybe a modern map may show what the farms are now known as (and perhaps before WW1).

"Chard" is also a vegetable (Swiss Chard) with edible leaves, perhaps they were growing in profusion there from pre war crops?

I'm not aware of Pigot or Piggott being anything other than a family surname.

It's just a thought, but if the Royal Engineers were active in the area, could Chard Farm be named after one of their most famous sons?

I refer to Lieutenant J R M Chard VC, the officer in charge at Rorke's Drift on the 22nd / 23rd January 1879. There are several modern day buildings named after him ... could this have been the same?

[laurent59]

Nigel, indeed I had a slip of the finger and you seen it ! The New-Zelanders soldiers arrive in Armentières on April/May for their first contact with trenches in France.

Thank you verry much for your explanation !

The Scorer, it's possible that you are right, because just next to "Chard farm was a communication trench called "miners walk" pehaps named by Royal Engineers ?

Thank

And thanks Tom for the map.

Laurent