Colin W Taylor Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 Paul I'm just glad someone has read that article in Stand To! - If you struggle to get hold of a copy I can send you an early draft if that's of assistance. As for Joseph Baxter I couldn't confirm or deny that he was a member of F Company. I've only checked a sample of service records from the Scots Guards Museum (sadly baxter's wasn't one I looked at), most don't mention men by company - only that they were with the 2nd Battalion. His name was on the memorial to the missing at la Touret but his name didn't appear on the missing lists that were sent to the Red Cross suggesting that his body was found after the battle (and the grave was later lost) or that he was seen to be killed for definite and his body was not recovered. I've only been able to identify about 20 members of F Coy for certain through different sources. Only four wounded men survived the 'last stand', one died of his wounds, one died after the war leaving only two survivors - one was repatriated from Germany, the other I do not know about. The chances of being able to find out for sure exactly what happened and exactly who were there at the very end is somewhat unlikely. The problem was that it may have been more than just F Coy that got surrounded and wiped out, there were likely to have been parts of other companies who got lost in the fog of war as well as members of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Also a number of men of F Coy were wounded crossing the German Lines and so wouldn't have been involved in the 'last stand.' The battalion lost 180 men killed and unless some further information comes to light I'm not sure whether it will be possibnle to identify further members of the 'immortals.' I'd suggest as the next course of action looking up his service records at the Scots Guards Museum but I don't know whether you'd successfully identify which company he was in. If I can be of any further assistance please let me know. If you want to visit the area I can provide you with a few maps of the area or copies of the battalion war diary. Kind regards Colin Taylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festubert Immortals Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 Dear Colin (if I may?), Thank you very much for your message - very good of you to respond! I would dearly love to read your article, if possible? I am fascinated by this episode, as I have Baxter's medals and would dearly love to find out whether he was a member of F Company. With reference to missing bodies etc, I did read some where that it took weeks and weeks for the bodies to be recoverd and buried. They were in a terrible state and all mixed-up. With this in mind, I am wondering whether his body could have been lost or was so badly damaged that they simply couldn't identify him? I am also curious as to whether the Scots Guards have honoured these men and have recorded their names somewhere? Did you come across anything at Birdcage Walk? Once again, many thanks for your help and I look forward to hearing from you soon. All the best, Paul. Paul I'm just glad someone has read that article in Stand To! - If you struggle to get hold of a copy I can send you an early draft if that's of assistance. As for Joseph Baxter I couldn't confirm or deny that he was a member of F Company. I've only checked a sample of service records from the Scots Guards Museum (sadly baxter's wasn't one I looked at), most don't mention men by company - only that they were with the 2nd Battalion. His name was on the memorial to the missing at la Touret but his name didn't appear on the missing lists that were sent to the Red Cross suggesting that his body was found after the battle (and the grave was later lost) or that he was seen to be killed for definite and his body was not recovered. I've only been able to identify about 20 members of F Coy for certain through different sources. Only four wounded men survived the 'last stand', one died of his wounds, one died after the war leaving only two survivors - one was repatriated from Germany, the other I do not know about. The chances of being able to find out for sure exactly what happened and exactly who were there at the very end is somewhat unlikely. The problem was that it may have been more than just F Coy that got surrounded and wiped out, there were likely to have been parts of other companies who got lost in the fog of war as well as members of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Also a number of men of F Coy were wounded crossing the German Lines and so wouldn't have been involved in the 'last stand.' The battalion lost 180 men killed and unless some further information comes to light I'm not sure whether it will be possibnle to identify further members of the 'immortals.' I'd suggest as the next course of action looking up his service records at the Scots Guards Museum but I don't know whether you'd successfully identify which company he was in. If I can be of any further assistance please let me know. If you want to visit the area I can provide you with a few maps of the area or copies of the battalion war diary. Kind regards Colin Taylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festubert Immortals Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 Dear Colin, Sorry to bother you again, but what I should have asked you in my last e-mail was how many members of F Company that you identified had no known graves and were remembered on Le Touret memorial? Does this give a clue in anyway as to the individual's company? Many thanks, Paul. Paul I'm just glad someone has read that article in Stand To! - If you struggle to get hold of a copy I can send you an early draft if that's of assistance. As for Joseph Baxter I couldn't confirm or deny that he was a member of F Company. I've only checked a sample of service records from the Scots Guards Museum (sadly baxter's wasn't one I looked at), most don't mention men by company - only that they were with the 2nd Battalion. His name was on the memorial to the missing at la Touret but his name didn't appear on the missing lists that were sent to the Red Cross suggesting that his body was found after the battle (and the grave was later lost) or that he was seen to be killed for definite and his body was not recovered. I've only been able to identify about 20 members of F Coy for certain through different sources. Only four wounded men survived the 'last stand', one died of his wounds, one died after the war leaving only two survivors - one was repatriated from Germany, the other I do not know about. The chances of being able to find out for sure exactly what happened and exactly who were there at the very end is somewhat unlikely. The problem was that it may have been more than just F Coy that got surrounded and wiped out, there were likely to have been parts of other companies who got lost in the fog of war as well as members of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Also a number of men of F Coy were wounded crossing the German Lines and so wouldn't have been involved in the 'last stand.' The battalion lost 180 men killed and unless some further information comes to light I'm not sure whether it will be possibnle to identify further members of the 'immortals.' I'd suggest as the next course of action looking up his service records at the Scots Guards Museum but I don't know whether you'd successfully identify which company he was in. If I can be of any further assistance please let me know. If you want to visit the area I can provide you with a few maps of the area or copies of the battalion war diary. Kind regards Colin Taylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 I'm just glad someone has read that article in Stand To! - If you struggle to get hold of a copy I can send you an early draft if that's of assistance. Hi Colin Can I just say a big 'Thank you' for your series of excellent articles in Stand To. I have an interest in Festubert and Voilaines - from the November 1914 period, when my grandad fought his way to the La Bassee Canal before being wounded (with 1/Cheshires) - so read your series with great interest. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 16 September , 2011 Share Posted 16 September , 2011 Graham Many thanks - I'm just glad a few people have read it! Paul As far as I know the names are not recorded anywhere; the 'two officers and eighty men of F Company' is a figure that doesn't necessarily add up; there is no way for sure to identify who was there. The 80 may have been the number of F Coy men missing after the battle but as I've said there were men of other companies present. There is evidence about 30 men of F Coy survived. Of the officers one was there who was of a different company and was reported found amongst the men in the last stand with his revolver in his hand. I'd presume that if Joseph's body wasn't identified he would have been on the list of those recorded as missing and sent to the Red Cross. It is probable that many of the bodies were recovered andf were lost in later battles. Of the 180 men killed with 2nd SG that day most were missing and on the la Touret Memorial. In terms of the 20 or so men of F Coy I can identify as being killed almost all are on that memorial. Some sources say the men were found shortly afterwards and therefore they were within the area of the ground taken during the battle; others say (as you mention above from Stephen Graham's account) that they were left out in no-mans-land. The problem is there isn't enough accurate information to ascertain the exact location of the fight. PM me with an email address and I'll send you a copy of the article. Kind Regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoEssGee Posted 3 May , 2013 Share Posted 3 May , 2013 I hope that no one minds me reviving this old thread, but it's something which I have a particular interest in having served with F Coy, 2nd Bn Scots Guards during my army career. I have found information which leads me to believe that the two officers with F Company that day were Lt James MacKenzie and 2Lt Ferdinand Marsham-Townsend. Lt MacKenzie was of Scottish origin, but was born in Kansas City, Missouri and educated in Canada. His Great Grandfather (also James MacKenzie) was Lord Provost of Glasgow from 1804 to 1806. He also studied engineering at King's College, London from where he was commissioned into the Scots Guards in December 1914. His memorial page from King's is here:- http://kingscollections.org/warmemorials/kings-college/memorials/mackenzie-james I found some information relating to 2Lt Marsham-Townsend from a sale of his medals in 2004 which again suggest strongly that he was with F Company. The information is here:- http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/auctionarchive/searchcataloguearchive/itemdetail.lasso?itemid=41075 Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I do not have access to Colin Taylor's articles in Stand To. Just wanted to set the record straight as we rapidly approach the hunderd year anniversary of these mens deaths. And if anyone is interested, F Coy still exists to this day. They are the Scots Guards Incremental Public Duties Company which is permanently based in London. The 2nd Bn was placed into suspended animation in 1993, but F Company still maintain the "line", and the traditions of the old battalion. Iain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 11 May , 2013 Share Posted 11 May , 2013 I feel that I must add a bit of skepticism to this interesting thread, echoing post # 63 above. These Scots Guards were attacked and finally overrun, and died fighting to the man? (With the possible exception of the company commander?) Then, some time later, the British Army was able to advance, retake the position, and found the Scots Guards where they fell, and found that they were surrounded by a large number of German bodies? Even if the Germans did not bother to bury the dead Scots, would they not have, at least, buried their own dead, in some sort of organized way? The Germans in France generally made a big deal of that activity. Most of my research is on the Hunnish side, and there are several ways that this incident could be researched from the German side; once the unit involved could be determined, which should be possible, it most likely would have a unit history. These, for a well-known regiment (or not well-known) often run to 400 pages, or even several volumes. This sort of question could also be approached from a casualty-reporting system, although working with that is tedious, I understand. Also, the German war graves society has an on-line data base documenting several million war deaths, and the resulting graves. (I have only worked with it a few times.) The society in question maintains cemeteries in sixty countries, I believe. The incident, as described, would have created quite a "cluster" in the German casualty reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsurgeon Posted 8 June , 2013 Share Posted 8 June , 2013 warsurgeon I am researching my Great Grandfather, 2nd Battalion Scots Guards, who was KIA 16 May 1915 at Festubert. I am trying to determine if he was also part if the "immortal 80". His name was Pte William Beckett I do not know which Coy he was in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 9 June , 2013 Share Posted 9 June , 2013 Warsurgeon I have only been able to track down a dozen or so men of 2nd Scots Guards as being members of F Company. However there is no evidence to state even if a man was with F Company that he was one of those who fought to the last man. By my recokoning more than one company of 2SG was present and there may have been men of 1st RWF present also. However that he was recorded on the memorial to the missing would suggest that his body was left on the battlefield after the action. This would suggest that he may have been killed with this group behind the German Lines - like with many actions in the Great War there are many unknowns and without more information it is difficult to know for certain. I was able to find little about 10341 Gdsn William Beckett except for CWGC and SDGW references and his MIC. I only pulled a about a dozen key service records at the Scots Guards museum when I visited and unfortunately Beckett's was not one. You may need to contact them to get a copy or visit to see it - there may be research costs involved. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsurgeon Posted 9 June , 2013 Share Posted 9 June , 2013 Kind thanks Colin, I appreciate your advice! Would you have the address to request a copy of his records? Best regards, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsurgeon Posted 9 June , 2013 Share Posted 9 June , 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 10 June , 2013 Share Posted 10 June , 2013 Andrew Many thanks for sharing the photograph; I haven't found that many for those who died in the fighting; though I've since moved on to further projects. There are contact details at this link. http://www.theguardsmuseum.com/Family-Research I was in contact with their archivist ( archives@rhqscotsguards.co.uk ), who was at the time Lance-Sergeant Gorman; he was very helpful. I'm not sure what the cost will be to order copies of service records though. I hope this helps Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsurgeon Posted 28 June , 2013 Share Posted 28 June , 2013 Thanks Colin, I did some more research on this and there is a statement of another Guardsman stating he saw Beckett go down on the attack. This was witnessed by a Guards Lt. His body was later found and buried in July If it would be helpful to your work, I can provide a scanned copy of this documentation. Cheers, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 28 June , 2013 Share Posted 28 June , 2013 Andrew I would be most interested to see a copy; can I ask which officer was named and from where you found it? Were the museum helpful? I must confess to have left this subject a little dormant in the last few years and should revisit it - I know a little more than I did when I wrote that piece. I should look up all of the service records of those who were killed but I don't have as much free time as I used to. If you are unwilling to post the document on here please feel free to private message me. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsurgeon Posted 30 June , 2013 Share Posted 30 June , 2013 Hi Colin, Please find attached some documentation. It seems like Pte Beckett was KIA on the Lt Flank of the assault. Cheers (from Canada), Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 1 July , 2013 Share Posted 1 July , 2013 Andrew Many thanks. I think it more likely that he was with Left Flank Company -2nd SG named their companies Right Flank, Left Flank, F and G. Left Flank Company attacked on the right of the battalion so were nearest 1st RWF. I hope this helps. It is interesting to know that he wasn't buried until July - presumably a number of other men commemorated on the La Touret memorial were buried at this time. I now need to look up the 2nd Yorks war diary. Many thanks and kind regards Colkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsurgeon Posted 5 July , 2013 Share Posted 5 July , 2013 Hi Colin, Thanks for your insight. It does indeed say is was in Lt Flank Coy, not on Lt flank. I look forward to reading your future posts. Cheers, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marilbles1 Posted 20 November , 2013 Share Posted 20 November , 2013 Hi. I have recently found that I am related to one of the Festubert Immortals. Gdsn 8453 Frederick Beckett is my mothers uncle. I proudly own his 1914 Campaign medal & my son, as proudly owns the famillies remeberance medal. Although, obviously we never knew him, both of us feel pride in remembering him this last Remeberance Day. It was through this site that I found out of his involvement at Festubert and I cannot thank you enough for the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Hi. I have recently found that I am related to one of the Festubert Immortals. Gdsn 8453 Frederick Beckett is my mothers uncle. I proudly own his 1914 Campaign medal & my son, as proudly owns the famillies remeberance medal. Although, obviously we never knew him, both of us feel pride in remembering him this last Remeberance Day. It was through this site that I found out of his involvement at Festubert and I cannot thank you enough for the information. Hello Marilbles1, Welcome to the GWF. You posting is exactly what this forum is all about. To Paul and the other posters on this topic, I'm enjoying this story. This is another benefit of the GWF. Kindest Regards, Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mascott Posted 19 August , 2017 Share Posted 19 August , 2017 I came across a reference to a group of soldiers who were cut off by a German counter attack at Festubert and had to fight to the end. When the position was retaken by our troops they said that the men were surrounded on all sides by enemy dead. I believe that there were some Scots Guards along with stragglers from other battalions. Can anybody shed some light on this and supply any more information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmelling1979 Posted 23 August , 2017 Share Posted 23 August , 2017 just found this from the imperial war museums website Content description Photocopy of an anonymous ts letter (3pp) possibly written by Captain G E Millner describing the attack of the 24th (County of London) Battalion, (The Queen's) London Regiment (142nd Brigade, 47th Division) as part of the Battle of Festubert on 25 - 26 May, giving in detail an account of the battalion's advance into the line, the feeling of going over the parapet, the consolidation of the captured German trench, the German counter-attacks during the night and the battalion's subsequent isolated position during the 26th May, with a reference to an unnamed bomber throwing bombs for two hours who appears to be Lance Corporal L J Keyworth VC. cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 23 August , 2017 Share Posted 23 August , 2017 Mascot, As Knotty suggests there are a number of other threads on this subject which will fill in the gaps; search 'Immortals' and 'Festubert' together. I'm happy to attempt to answer any specific questions you may have once you've found all you can on the forum. John M I'm afraid I don't think the piece on 24th Londons refers to the fighting Mascot is asking about. Regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willh1664 Posted 18 January , 2018 Share Posted 18 January , 2018 I have something that might be of interest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 18 January , 2018 Share Posted 18 January , 2018 Will, It is a good picture; I frustratingly found a copy shortly after I got an article on the action published. I'm not sure if it reflected reality in any way though; certainly some of the poetry written on the action was concocted in the UK by those who were not there. But a striking image nonetheless. Regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 30 December , 2023 Share Posted 30 December , 2023 This is a very old thread and please accept my apologies for resurrecting it, but I think I can reasonably state that 10169 Private Norbert Richard Baines was not one of the 'F' Company 'Festubert Immortals' because he was serving with the Right Flank Company. This information is in his Army service record as follows: On 28th October 1915 his mother wrote to the Commanding Officer, Battalion Guards Division: Dear Sir, is it possible that you could give me any news whatever of my only child., Pte. N. R. Baines. No. 10169. Right Flank Coy, 7th Division 2nd Scots Guards, who was reported wounded & missing after the engagement at Festubert on May 16th? Could you tell me of any officer or man, who was in that engagement, & had the luck to come through and return home? The suspense is almost more than I can bear, it seems so strange to me, that in the first instance he should be reported wounded only. Surely someone knew it, or was it only guess work? Up to now I have failed to find any trace whatever of him, after numerous enquiries. I would be most grateful if you could give me any information. Thanking you in anticipation. I remain yours faithfully, (Mrs) Margaret A. Baines. Margaret received a reply, which had been sent to her on 30th October 1915: Madam, in reply to your letter of the 28th instant, I am extremely sorry not to be able to give you any information regarding your son, No. 10169 Pte. R. N. Baines, 2nd Battalion Scots Guards. News of any kind have not yet come to hand of several of our men reported missing after operations on the 16th May last at Festubert, he being amongst them. You may rest assured that should any information regarding him come to this office, it will be communicated to you immediately. Yours faithfully, A. C. Douglas, Captain, Regimental Adjutant, Scots Guards. On 1st April 1916 a letter from the War Office to the Officer Commanding Scots Guards, Buckingham Gate, S.W. that the Army Council had officially decided that Private Baines was to be regarded for official purposes as having died on or since the 16th May 1915. On 12th June 1916 his mother Margaret replied to a letter: 17, Dumbarton Road, Brixton Hill, S.W. November 14th 1921. Sir, In reply to yours of Nov 10th, my permanent address is 'Hillcroft,' Wilton Road, Shanklin, Isle of Wight, but for the next few days it will be as above. Re, my late son's regimental number Pte. N. R. Baines 10169, Second Scots Guards. Thanking you. Beg to remain, Yours truly, Margaret A. Baines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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