Poppy ban in areas of Birmingham

[andymr1]

BBC news : Birmingham charity ban hits British Legion poppy collectors. The Royal British Legion has been forbidden from collecting money in two of Birmingham's main shopping streets in the run-up to Remembrance Sunday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14910655

Not happy

Andy

[auchonvillerssomme]

Well thats ok, just don't invite the pratts with the bling in the picture to the parade.

[trajan]

It would have been fairer to use a less emotive title and to have pointed out the circumstances - that another charity had received prior permission to collect on two specific days in two specific streets. That apart I would agree this is a bit of shock and disturbing news. Hopefully the other charity (charities?) that have the prior claim will cede their rights.

Trajan

[stevem49]

I would have thought New St and High St would be long enough to have two lots of collectors.

Councils allow unlimited muppets attempting to get you to change your - phone, gas, electric, broadband etc, to annoy you constantly, yet a couple of charities is 'one' to many. No doubt the city fathers (and mothers!) have had lots of photo opportunities at Selly Oak Hospital.

[Matthew]

I presume that the Council did advertise these new rules to all the charities and that the Legion did get their act together to 'book' early though. The emotive title does suggest that a 'journo' is doing a bit of sensationalizing.

I would have thought that the Council could work out that, for example, the RAFA would want the Saturday before Battle of Britain day, The Legion the Saturday before Armistice Day etc. Other charities, without fixed dates such as these, could then fill in the gaps.

[Steven Broomfield]

The emotive title does suggest that a 'journo' is doing a bit of sensationalizing.

Heaven forbid

Seriously, it looks like a large storm in a not-very-big teacup, and I suspect the "Pratts with the bling" in the photos (who are, after all, elected representatives) are probably not the ones responsible. This silly interpretation of the rules strikes me as a Council jobsworth being somewhat, shall we say, narrow-minded.

The actions of Shelter are quite right, and I wouldn't mind betting the other charity involved steps down pretty quickly (and probably would have done had some irate herbert done this through the right channels rather than mouth off to a scoop-hungry journo).

Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells is alive and well and working for the Beeb, it would appear.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Prats with bling, maybe my opinion was clouded by a previous mayor of another place and I shouldn't tar them all with the same brush. But I just can't help it.

[David Filsell]

Regardless of who, how, when and why, it remains unacceptable. I doubt that the charity dare ignore the ban - but they should, Now that would make a great picture Poppy Day collecter being hauled of by the boys in blue!Lsts call a riot.

[bruce]

Prats with bling, maybe my opinion was clouded by a previous mayor of another place and I shouldn't tar them all with the same brush. But I just can't help it.

Do you mean me?

Bruce

[Crusoe]

I'm curious as to why Birmingam City Council need to have such a prescriptive policy in the first place and then, when it appears that a bit of a PR disaster is looming, why they can't just quietly concede defeat and let everyone get on with things without further rancour.

The whole point of street-based charity giving is that it is an opportunity for passers by to donate if they wish to; shaking a collecting tin isn't exactly what you'd call aggressive begging (although it is apparently used as an effective crowd-dispersal technique in Scotland...........allegedly.)

Journalistic excess may be at play here, but it usually acheives it's aim - embarrassment of its target. I can't imagine too many councillors or council beaurocrats fighting over places in the queue to be closely associated with this policy following its very public airing.

[Staffsyeoman]

As an exiled Brummie myself... My Uncle is still resident, who at the age of 88 with health and WW2

wounds catching up on him still parades in another part of the city and is by all accounts one of their most successful individual collectors... may well have a view.

Trying to look beyond tabloidism - it may have been a well-intentioned but ignorant of 'the law of unintended consequences' attempt to curb the plague of 'chuggers'.

That said - however noble the other charities' causes; knowingly booking the two most important dates for the RBL in a year does make you wonder how many sandwiches they still require to arrange a picnic.

[gem22]

If I might be allowed to clarify a couple of points from the RBL pointof view; I'm a Poppy Appeal Organiser for two branches of the RBL,we, as organisers, were informed in June of this year of the dates on which we are allowed to hold street collections in our areas. In my own case the local District Council, who issue the licences, allowed me 8 days for street collections this year, in line with there policy of previous years.

Bearing in mind that the document I (and all other PAOs) received was published on 3 June, and cannot be published until the majority of licence dates are known, I hope you'll realise that the RBL was not tardy in submitting it's application for licences. Indeed the applications for the 2012 appeal will be going through the system even now. The RBL, of all charities, accepts the need to ensure that collectors are properly licenced and obey the law.

In my turn I will ensure that all my collectors carry their licences in case anybody asks to see them.

What I find slightly disappointing in this matter is that another charity, or charities, would apply for street collection licences during Remembrancetide. The RBL is very aware of it's responsibilty to not trespass on someone elses time or territory. As, possibly, the largest, best known, charity in this country the RBL tries to set a good example to others by not making street collections outside of Remembrancetide; we would hope that others would reciprocate.

N.B The views outlined above are personal and should not be taken to be RBL policy, though I believe I have kept to the spirit of the RBL.

Stepping down from my soapbox and retiring into the distance.

Garth

[Terry_Reeves]

I have no doubt that public opinion ion will settle the issue, however, I do find this quote from the article a little strange:

Licensing committee chairman Bruce Lines, who raised the issue at a council meeting on Tuesday, said: "Unfortunately they are unable to overturn that decision as it would be unlawful."

Are we really expected to believe that we are stuck with all laws forever?

TR

[truthergw]

When was Remembrancetide invented?

[Seany]

I'm not sure that the other charities deliberately booked those dates it seems like they just applied for a street collection a bit earlier than the legion and the dates were allocated. They seem to have given them up quite quickly but I would of thought the poppy collection and its associated events are so part of British society now that the legion would not need to apply to collect on Armistice day and council should of known that to give the date to another charity would lead to this kind of publicity.

That said - however noble the other charities' causes; knowingly booking the two most important dates for the RBL in a year does make you wonder how many sandwiches they still require to arrange a picnic.

[gem22]

When was Remembrancetide invented?

After 1914 but prior to 2004 when I took over as branch PAO. Remembrancetide is how the RBL refers to the period leading up to Remembrance Sunday in their Guidelines to Poppy Appeal Organisers.

Garth

[centurion]

I have no doubt that public opinion ion will settle the issue, however, I do find this quote from the article a little strange:

Licensing committee chairman Bruce Lines, who raised the issue at a council meeting on Tuesday, said: "Unfortunately they are unable to overturn that decision as it would be unlawful."

Are we really expected to believe that we are stuck with all laws forever?

TR

No only until they are repealed or amended by due process. One of the costs of a democratic and civil society is a need to obey the law even when it appears to have been drafted by dorks. The alternative is anarchy so Birmingham Council need to follow the by laws that they themselves passed. One hopes that suitable amendments will be made and voted through to deal with fixed feasts. BTW whoever came up with the word Remembrancetide should be indited and shot as an offence against the laws of good English.

[gem22]

In case nobody else has noticed the BBC news website is currently carrying an article saying that the decision has been reversed. Shelter and The Anthony Nolan Trust, the other charities involved, have withdrawn their applications and Birmingham City Council has offered the dates to the RBL. So ends another 'storm in a teacup' regarding events around Remembrancetide.

Garth

[Steven Broomfield]

No only until they are repealed or amended by due process. One of the costs of a democratic and civil society is a need to obey the law even when it appears to have been drafted by dorks. The alternative is anarchy so Birmingham Council need to follow the by laws that they themselves passed. One hopes that suitable amendments will be made and voted through to deal with fixed feasts. BTW whoever came up with the word Remembrancetide should be indited and shot as an offence against the laws of good English.

And hear, hear to all of that.

[Bernard_Lewis]

When I worked in a council job years ago I handled bookings for the hall in which the remembrance service was held. We used to book it in the new diary for 11/11 each year without the British Legion asking us. I'd like to have thought that someone at Brum council would have had a bit of common sense and pencilled in or encouraged the BL to get their request in pronto.

Bernard

[stevem49]

When was Remembrancetide invented?

Just after Christmastide and Eastertide

Long time after Tideswell though

[Steven Broomfield]

My mum used to maon about the tide mark when I washed my face.

Is that connected?

[auchonvillerssomme]

Do you mean me?

Bruce

Not unless you were mayor of Doncaster and changed your name, I suspect not.

[Terry_Reeves]

No only until they are repealed or amended by due process. One of the costs of a democratic and civil society is a need to obey the law even when it appears to have been drafted by dorks. The alternative is anarchy so Birmingham Council need to follow the by laws that they themselves passed. One hopes that suitable amendments will be made and voted through to deal with fixed feasts. BTW whoever came up with the word Remembrancetide should be indited and shot as an offence against the laws of good English.

Centurion, that is exactly the point - they can be removed, and that can be done by an extraordinary meeting of the committee that drew them up in the first place, and ratified by a full council meeting, at relatively short notice, if need be. The quote suggests that this particular law is somehow inviolate, a tactic often used by politicians and various local and national government departments who have been caught on the hop.

TR

[War13Memorial]

I'm curious as to why Birmingam City Council need to have such a prescriptive policy in the first place and then, when it appears that a bit of a PR disaster is looming, why they can't just quietly concede defeat and let everyone get on with things without further rancour.

The whole point of street-based charity giving is that it is an opportunity for passers by to donate if they wish to; shaking a collecting tin isn't exactly what you'd call aggressive begging (although it is apparently used as an effective crowd-dispersal technique in Scotland...........allegedly.)

Journalistic excess may be at play here, but it usually acheives it's aim - embarrassment of its target. I can't imagine too many councillors or council beaurocrats fighting over places in the queue to be closely associated with this policy following its very public airing.

Not funny, you should aplogise.

Billy