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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

1917 dated , Dial Sight No. 7, MK II


bmg17a1

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Looking for information about weapon on which this dial sight was used and when. From some light research it appears to have been used with a WW I Brit 4 inch cannon, but not much more seems to be available that is easy to find.

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DIAL SIGHT NO. 7 MKII

R+J BECK LTD

1917

no 21094

Case marked:

CASE NO. 7 DIAL SIGHT NO. 1

GEO. BUSSEY + CO. LTD 1917

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Handbook of Artillery Instruments 1914 in the chapter on the No. 7 Dial Sight Mk11 mentions:

"A stout leather case is provided for carrying the No.7 Dial Sight, when it is not parmanently attached to a carrier. The case can be strapped in a vertical position to the shield of the 4.5 inch Q.F.Howitzer or in the B.L. 60 pr carriage limber, two brass sockets at the sides taking most of the weight."

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Thanks, squirrel, for your post and the information. Seems that there ins't much info on these sights to be found.

Now, what might the value be of such a device? It is in very good condition, complete, sound and nothing broken with lenses that are dirty but no scratched or abused. Case is in very good to excellent condition, and well marked with strap.

Bob Naess

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My understanding is that the Dial Sight No 7 Mark II was in quite general use on field artillery such as the 13 pounder and 18 pounder as well as the guns mentioned above. It is certanly illustrated in use on the 13 pounder in British Artillery 1914-19 (Fileld Army Artillery) by Dale Clarke (published by Osprey)

The film of the Somme seems to show the layer of a very heavy calibre gun removing a very similar sight immediately prior to firing to protect it from the shock (which did not seem to leave him with too many spare hands to put over his ears).

I think the same sight with the addition of an additional sliding 'degree' ring was used on the 25 pounder (and would still have been in service into the 1970s?)

As I am not a gunnery expert, I would be happy to be set right

Ian

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My understanding is that the Dial Sight No 7 Mark II was in quite general use on field artillery such as the 13 pounder and 18 pounder as well as the guns mentioned above. It is certainly illustrated in use on the 13 pounder in British Artillery 1914-19 (Field Army Artillery) by Dale Clarke (published by Osprey). I can't see any good reason for guns developed immediately prior to the war to have had different sighting arrangements.

The film of the Somme seems to show the layer of a very heavy calibre gun removing a very similar sight immediately prior to firing to protect it from the shock (which did not seem to leave him with too many spare hands to put over his ears).

I think the same sight a similar sight with the addition of an additional sliding 'degree' ring was used on the 25 pounder (and would still have been in service into the 1970s?)

As I am not a gunnery expert, I would be happy to be set right

Ian

Edited by Ian Riley
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Thanks, Ian, more interesting info, for which I am obliged.

Would like to know ballpark value, too if someone has any ideas......

Bob Naess

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No clue on a price for this item but found the following from the Handbook of the 18pdr QF Gun 1913:

The No.7 dial sight and No.2 carrier (carrier No. 7 dial sight, No. 2) must be kept in the box provided when not in use. The box was secured to the gun shield when not in use.

The No.7 dial sight and No.2 carrier will eventually supersede the No.1 dial sight with QF 18 pdr guns.

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No 7 DS was the standard dial sight from a few years after the introduction of indirect fire pre-WW1 until well into WW2. It was based on the German Goerz design, basically with an enlarged main scale to make it easier to read. In US speak a dial sight is a 'panoramic telescope' (why use short words when you can have long ones?)

Needless to say you can find quite a lot of information on dial sights on this page http://nigelef.tripod.com/fc_laying.htm of my web site. Having completed a long gunnery staff course my information is technically reliable and I even understand what I'm talking about :-)

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The site you have 'nigelfe" answers lots of questions, thank-you. In the US there are quite a lot of indirect optics for all sorts of MGs and a small and growing fraternity of collectors are now acquiring them. Of course, many MG owners also have them along with their MGs for display. I have some indirect fire sights for MGs like the Vickers, MG08, 1917A1, etc, but sadly don't have a 4.5" cannon and carriage for this unit!

Any interest in acquiring the sight pictured for your collection, if you have one? Where are the Brit artillery optics collectors? Who might know the value? As far as value, i did locate a US auction on the internet that had sold one for about $300US. That's my only value reference currently......

Bob Naess

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I did a bit of web searching a while back and found a few traders, but have no idea what the market is like. A 3.7-in How would probably be the smallest (overalll size) gun to use a No 7 DS, there's could be some gathering dust in depots in India or Pakistan!

In WW2 UK, etc, used the same much smaller and simpler sight for both Vickers MMG and 3-in mortar, I've no idea if this was the same indirect fire sight as used with Vickers MMGs in WW1. They continued with a new (Canadian) common sight when Vickers and 3-in mors were replaced in the 1960s.

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  • 10 months later...

Hi Bob,

The No.7 Mk2 dial sight was pretty standard for all Britrish artillery. I have a couple of examples of the WW1 No.7 sight (no cases), as well as the Australian made version called the No.107. Although the No.107 looks identical and fits anything a No.7 will fit, the internals are not interchangeable, so hence the different number. Australia used the No7 and 107 until the 25 pounder gun was phased out in the 1970s.

By WW2, the No7 sights had been recalibrated to the new fire control system. The WW1 sights were graduated to 180 degrees left and right, but the WW2 versions were remarked from 0 to 360 degrees. For me it is the leather case that is interesting, as judging by your photo, there may be a couple of different types that were made during WW1.

I am restoring an 18 pounder MkI field gun from a pile of scrap parts, and I am looking for the accessories like clinometer, telescope and dial sight equipment and their original WW1 dated leather cases. Hence, I am interested to see what your WW1 made leather case looks like.

The originals for the 18 pounder and 13 pounder had a sort of tombstone shape (opened from the side and has a round top). The other leather case for No7 sights mainly seen on WW2 guns is a truncated pyramid shape, and from what I can see, look like yours. Do you have a photo of the case you can post?

As to value, the sights alone are about $150 to $250 on ebay. With the WW1 dated case, this could be a fair bit more for someone like me looking to complete a gun for centenary display.....

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Actually, I think you'll find Australia adopted No 9 once it became available. Having fired Australian 25-pr in the early 1970s I'm reasonably confident that No 9 was used, and having poked around in the store at N Head before the museum was moved out I seem to remember No 9s there, although Aust did continue with the old No 5 parallelescope and did not adopt the prism one.

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  • 5 years later...

The No 7 Dial Sight I purchased came without a case.  Does anyone know where I might purchase one please?

 

V/R

 

Wayne

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Hi Wayne,

as Damien said above, the WW1 dated cases are a pain to find. WW2 manufactured cases are very common and effectively interchangeable, except that the date is in big letters and very obvious.  I usually see the WW2 cases with a WW2 sight still in them.

 

During WW1 there was some variation in case design as the mounting locations on shields of different guns did not allow the use of a universal design for the cases. The sights however were a common design.

 

The Mark I indirect fire sight is a very rare beast. It was obsolete before the start of the war but was still in limited use on a number of different guns. For a number of howitzer models both types were on issue at the same time with the No7 as the "A" sight and the No 1 as the "B" sight (reserve sight if the primary sight is damaged).

5a4306cc8756d_6in30cwtBL06.thumb.jpg.c020239f116c3449197b91ace87e7dad.jpg

No 1 dial sight on a 6-inch 30cwt howitzer at Firepower Museum in 2013.

The direct fire sights are simple micrometer iron sights

 

5a4307689a9c5_6in26cwtBL23.thumb.jpg.cf13e2fa6d288d8e5fc50ae4f9befc57.jpg

No 7 dial sight on a 6-inch 26 cwt howitzer (pneumaticized for WW2)

at Firepower Museum in 2013

This gun is also fitted with a "rocking bar" frame to carry a simple direct fire telescopic sight

No 4, the same direct fire telescope used with the 13pr and 18pr field guns.

 

Cheers

Ross

 

 

 

 

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Hello Chasemuseum,

 

Really appreciate the reply.....I certainly didn't realise that the No 7 Gun Sight was used on so many different guns and over such a long period and that the cases varied.

 

For interest, the one I purchased is in really good condition, was made by Ross of London and is dated 1918.  I bought it because my Grandfather was a Gun Layer on 4.5 inch Howitzers during WW1.  He won the M.M. whilst fighting alongside Sergeant Cyril E Gourley when he won his V.C. during the Battle of Cambrai at Little Priel Farm.  As part of the centenary commemorations (30th November 2017), the Royal Artillery commissioned a painting of the action by the famed military artist David Rowlands and a No. 7 Gunsight can clearly be seen in the painting attached to a 4.5 inch Howitzer.  A signed print and the gunsight are now family heirlooms and if anyone knows where I can find a correct holder for the gunsight, I will be very grateful.

 

V/R

 

Wayne 

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Hi Wayne,

Unfortunately the sight mounting cup is effectively an impossible find. This was part of the gun and was scrapped with the gun. The 4.5s were mostly scrapped early during WW2, so the rate of survival is very low. Odd as it may sound, a number of 4.5s converted to pneumatic tyre wheels ended up in the USA and were distributed in war memorials there.

 

Cheers

Ross

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Hi Chasemuseum,

 

Many thanks fir keeping me updated.  Can you believe that a while back,  a guy had 2 for sale!  Unfortunately, I missed them as they sold very quickly.

 

Must keep looking and I'll try some US sites.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

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Hi Wayne

the attached photo is a 4.5 that was recovered from a range in New Zealand and on the market in 2014.  It looks pretty terrible but against that it was a project starting point. Someone local made a higher offer than me so I missed it, but I had to factor the transport costs into the project. The pneumaticised gun was for sale in the UK for  along time but with an unrealistic asking price. Some nice examples have come through the USA market. AS always price reflects what you are buying.

Cheers

Ross

5a4b2fa620cf2_CollectingtheGunsAPR14001.jpg.f180d33de6f1ee8954f5285a1f79fd76.jpg

2014 - range recovered 4.5in howitzer in New Zealand

 

5a4b30000d76e_Helstontrail4-5QRF2.jpg.fd77882832770b0783cc1ec34c0509e0.jpg

UK gun, converted to pneumatic wheels immediately prior to WW2. The conversion back to No45 wood wheels is a substantial project involving rebuilding the axles and all of the brake linkage system.

 

In either case a barrel and breech were required.

 

 

 

 

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Hello Chasemuseum,

 

If only I could afford to restore something like that.  I've seen the green carriage on a web site before selling for £15k , so imagine how much the total cost would be to covert back, have a barrel and all the rest of the equipment made etc etc.

 

As for the one rescued off the range.......heaven knows?

 

Having said that, wouldn't it wonderful if they could be restored and kept in Museums for all to appreciate.  Personally, I'm waiting for the 4.5 inch Howitzer from Firepower to re-appear.  Paul Evans, the ex Librarian at Firepower showed me around it a while back, but it was a bit rushed as I had to go somewhere else.  I wish I had studied it more at the time.  Any idea when Firepower's successor will open and where it will be located please?

 

V/R

 

Wayne

 

 

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2 hours ago, wmfinch said:

 Any idea when Firepower's successor will open and where it will be located please?

 

Salisbury Plain Heritage Centre Home of the Royal Artillery Collection.  I believe it  is not expected to open until c 2020, but that is an estimate I read some time ago, and usually progress is slower than expected.

 

Cheers

Maureen

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Ah thanks Maureene,

 

I'll definitely keep an eye out for it opening.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

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Hi Maureen,

I am afraid this is classic museum politics the world over. FirePower was moved from a relatively accessible location, where an international visitor like myself, could divert whilst in London, to a remote location which requiring a planned trip to get there. From a side trip of a few hours to the allocation of two or three days. I made the mistake a few years back of visiting the Royal Signals Museum at Blandford Forum using public transport. Ultimately it would have been so much cheaper if I had just rented a car at Heathrow for a few hundred pounds. I might add, that this museum was absolutely worth the visit, their WW1 material is superb and the staff are wonderful in the assistance they provided to my research.

 

Here in Australia, the national artillery museum used to be at North Head in Sydney, at a heritage coastal artillery fort. Again a relatively accessible location. A ferry ride across the harbour from the CBD, then about a £10 taxi fare. For very convoluted politics that actually had little to do with the museum and a lot more to do with who would pay for upgrading the electrical power supply to some heritage buildings in the park land precinct, the museum was closed and relocated to an army base in rural Victoria, 120km from the city. A new museum is to be built there at some time off in the mythical future, in the meantime the collection sits in shipping containers, baking in summer and freezing in winter – and inaccessible.

Cheers

Ross

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Yes, I see there must be some scepticism about the new site and an opening date, especially with all the Government cut backs.

 

I also found it hard to believe that Woolwich of all places would actually close!.....But it did!!!

 

Some of the small artefacts appear to be available to the Army and other Forces on occasions, as witnessed when Sergeant Cyril E Gourley's V.C. was brought to his grave re-dedication on 30th November 2017.  However, I cannot see anyone moving a 4.5" Howitzer  around the country quite so easily.

 

I can understand the frustration for Ross and other International visitors when Woolwich closed.  My Step Daughter lives a stone's throw  away from Woolwich so I could easily stay overnight in the past.  However, at the risk of being parochial, the planned new location is just 1 1/2 hours drive away, so it will be easier for me personally.  Having said that, the roads to Salisbury Plain are narrow and get pretty crowded in the summer plus the public transport to the new location will be 'interesting' in my opinion.  This could make it difficult for folks who live further away, even in the UK.  Hmm, watch this space I guess!

 

Getting back to the original thread, please let me know if a Holder and/or a case for my No. 7 Gunsight becomes available :-) 

 

V/R

 

Wayne

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello All,

 

I just bought a 1943 dated Dial Sight case off ebay, which needed a small repair and has cleaned up very well.  I found a WW1 case from a dealer in Australia,, but the shipping costs made it uneconomic, so I settled for a later one.

 

However, I am a little confused about something regarding the 4.5 inch Howitzer.

 

I have read references to the case being attached to the shield when in transit, but Len Trewin's  book shows  a Stowage Receptacle for it at the towing end of the Trail.  I'm not sure if I am correct, but I think the Stowage Receptacle had a hinged top and the case would have gone inside.  If I am correct, did the Receptacle have a metal bottom to protect the case from underneath?

 

I will be very grateful for any information.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

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