WWI Battle Honours

[Black Jock]

Joe,

Thanks for bringing that up. I have looked at Wauchope. The Army Council decided that only 10 Battle Honours would be emblazoned on the Colours. General John Maxwell, Colonel of the Regiment chaired a commitee and decided that to be emblazoned on the Kings Colour would be;

Marne, 1914,18

Ypres, 1914,'17,'18.

Loos

Somme,1916,'18

Arras, 1917,'18

Lys

Hindenburg Line

Doiran,1917

Megiddio

Kut Al Amara, 1917

These battles were chosen as the most representative of the twelve Battalions who campaigned in the Great war.

From Chalky, Moderater on the Black Watch Forum.

During the Great War the Black Watch had 25 battalions. I think the list here is the shared Battle Honours.

Retreat from Mons,

Marne 1914 '18,

Aisne 1914,

La Bassée 1914,

Ypres 1914 '17 '18,

Langemarck 1914,

Gheluvelt,

Nonne Bosschen,

Givenchy 1914,

Neuve Chapelle,

Aubers,

Festubert 1915,

Loos,

Somme 1916 '18,

Albert 1916,

Bazentin,

Delville Wood,

Pozières,

Flers-Courcelette,

Morval,

Thiepval,

Le Transloy,

Ancre Heights,

Ancre 1916,

Arras 1917 '18,

Vimy 1917,

Scarpe 1917 '18,

Arleux,

Pilckem,

Menin Road,

Polygon Wood,

Poelcappelle,

Passchendaele,

Cambrai 1917 '18,

St Quentin,

Bapaume 1918,

Rosières,

Lys,

Estaires,

Messines 1918,

Hazebrouck,

Kemmel,

Béthune,

Scherpenberg,

Soissonnais-Ourcq,

Tardenois,

Drocourt-Quéant,

Hindenburg Line,

Épéhy,

St Quentin Canal,

Beaurevoir,

Courtrai,

Selle,

Sambre,

France and Flanders 1914-18,

Doiran 1917,

Macedonia 1915-18,

Egypt 1916,

Gaza,

Jerusalem,

Tell'Asur,

Megiddo,

Sharon,

Damascus,

Palestine 1917-18,

Tigris 1916,

Kut al Amara 1917,

Baghdad,

Mesopotamia 1915-17

Total 69

[dycer]

I disagree as is my want

The Royal Scots Regimental WW1 Honours as carried on the Queen's Colour are,

Le Cateau.

Marne 1914,1918.

Ypres 1915,1917,1918,

Loos,

Somme,1916,1918

Arras 1917,1918

Lys

Struma

Gallipoli 1915,1916

Palestine 1917-18

George

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Think you better have another look Tom, yes 'Ubique' was bestowed upon the RE and RA by William IV in 1830's in lieu of battle honours prior to that date but it is also applies for all battle honours since as well. ...

Nick - Quote - "... The Corps of of Royal Engineers has a long heritage that not many corps can rival - it can claim direct descent from the military engineers that William the Conqueror brought to England. Since then it has lived up to its Motto 'Ubique' ('Everywhere'), having had a significant presence at every large-scale battle the British Army has ever fought. ..." - Ministry of Defence, history, Royal Engineers.

Ubique is not a battle honour (certainly not in the context being discussed here) and it most definitely isnt a battle honour for every action which the REs have been involved, as inferred by your post #7.

Tom

[Guest]

Nick - Quote - "... The Corps of of Royal Engineers has a long heritage that not many corps can rival - it can claim direct descent from the military engineers that William the Conqueror brought to England. Since then it has lived up to its Motto 'Ubique' ('Everywhere'), having had a significant presence at every large-scale battle the British Army has ever fought. ..." - Ministry of Defence, history, Royal Engineers.

Ubique is not a battle honour (certainly not in the context being discussed here) and it most definitely isnt a battle honour for every action which the REs have been involved, as inferred by your post #7.

Tom

Gents. With the greatest respect this is a distraction to the subject of the thread....I was a Royal Engineer (Queen's Gurkha Engineer). The RE had no battle honours. Ubique is short for Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt (Everywhere Where Right and Glory Lead) and is a motto not a battle honour. ....for this reason my original question was about Cavalry Regiments and Infantry Battalions....

It is almost certain that the answer to the original question will be a regular infantry battalion that was in the BEF as they would have been in action continuously for 4 years (or more) and would have had the opportunity (misfortune?) to see the most amount of action. The Cavalry had significantly fewer opportunities than the infantry in WWI, so I am betting that the 1st or 2nd Bn of a Line Infantry regiment would have received the highest number of battle honours as the Militia Bns, Kitchener Bns and TF generally speaking were not engaged from the very start in August 1914.... but I still don't know the answer.....any input would be gratefully received. Thanks MG

[ARMAGH]

Posted Yesterday, 08:35 PM

Joe,

Thanks for bringing that up. I have looked at Wauchope. The Army Council decided that only 10 Battle Honours would be emblazoned on the Colours. General John Maxwell, Colonel of the Regiment chaired a commitee and decided that to be emblazoned on the Kings Colour would be;

Marne, 1914,18

Ypres, 1914,'17,'18.

Loos

Somme,1916,'18

Arras, 1917,'18

Lys

Hindenburg Line

Doiran,1917

Megiddio

Kut Al Amara, 1917

These battles were chosen as the most representative of the twelve Battalions who campaigned in the Great war.

Thanks Tam

Is that the Colours of the 1st Bn?

Where would I find the Battle Honours for each Bn in the Black Watch Regiment?

Wauchope list the Actions and Qperations ?

I think that is the Battle Houours List?

Joe

[ARMAGH]

List of Actions and Operations for the 1st Bn The Black Watch during the Great War 1914-1918

taken from Major-General Wauchope History of the Black Watch (RHR)

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Gents. With the greatest respect this is a distraction to the subject of the thread....I was a Royal Engineer (Queen's Gurkha Engineer). The RE had no battle honours. Ubique is short for Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt (Everywhere Where Right and Glory Lead) and is a motto not a battle honour. ....for this reason my original question was about Cavalry Regiments and Infantry Battalions....

It is almost certain that the answer to the original question will be a regular infantry battalion ...

Martin – With all due respect – if you had stated that “qualified” opinion back in post #15 (say) then you could have shut-off the unqualified claim being made about the REs having had some battle honour for every engagement they have ever been involved in, which is clearly nonsense.

Your speculation about the answer to the original question being a Regular Infantry Battalion is interesting, and any eventual definitive answer will obviously be enlightening. (I am also an engineer by training, so I’d stress, speculation. “Scientifically” the proposal could be badly flawed).

Tom

[Guest]

Martin – With all due respect – if you had stated that "qualified" opinion back in post #15 (say) then you could have shut-off the unqualified claim being made about the REs having had some battle honour for every engagement they have ever been involved in, which is clearly nonsense.

Your speculation about the answer to the original question being a Regular Infantry Battalion is interesting, and any eventual definitive answer will obviously be enlightening. (I am also an engineer by training, so I'd stress, speculation. "Scientifically" the proposal could be badly flawed).

Tom

Tom

You are right. I should have been more clear. I thought I had when I amended the original to Cavalry Regts and Inf Bns after post No. 3. Clearly not. Thank you for pointing this out.

I don't agree with your post No.5 that battle hours were awarded at Regimental level. I have seen nore than a few examples of Bn histories that only mention that Bn's battle honours (see below). Battle honours were awarded to the Battalions present at defined actions. Many years after the War, when the Army contracted, the battle honours from the multiple battalions were carried (in some cases) by the remaining Battalion(s). In 1919, I don't think you would see any Service Bn or TF Bn or Militia Bn lay claim to battle honours awarded to other Battalions.

For clarity... this is not a thread about the battle honours on the Colours or Guidons. The question (in its most simplified form) is which Infantry Battalion has the most number of WWI battle honours? This includes battle honours not carried on the King's Colour. If one reads published histories of Service Bns for example, they usually only show that Bn's battle honours not the battle honours of every Bn in that Regiment.

An example: The 19 battalions of the Lincolnshire Regt has 58 Battle honours from WWI [source: Bristish Regiments 1914-1919 page 16] but the 6th (Service) Bn Lincolnshire Regt has 'only' 20 (see below) [source: The History of The 6th (Service Bn Lincolnshire Regt 1914-1919 by Col F G Spring] of which 10 would be carried on the colours. It is the long list of 20 that interests me. The Bn does not claim title to the other 38 battle honours awarded to the other Battalions of the Lincolnshire Regt.

SUVLA

Landing at Suvla

Scimitar Hill

Gallipoli 1915

Egypt 1916

SOMME 1916

Flers-Courcelette

Thiepval

MESSINES 1917

YPRES 1918

Langemarck 1917

Poelcapelle

Arras 1918

Scarpe 1918

Drocourt-Queant

HINDENBURG LINE

Canal du Nord

Cambrai 1918

Sambre

France and Flanders 1916-18

By Comparison, the 10th Bn The Lincolnshire Regt (Grimsby Chums) have 13 Battle Honours (see below), [source: Grimsby's Own, the Story of the Chums by Peter Chapman] and only 3 in common with the 6th Bn. They too make no claim on battle honours awarded to the other battalions in the Lincolnshire Regt.

SOMME 1916

Albert

Poziers Ridge

YPRES 1917

Poelcapelle

ARRAS 1917

First Battle of the Scarpe

Arleux

Lys 1918

St Quentin

Bailleul

Etsairs

Kemmel Ridge

Another example is the 15th Service Bn The Welsh Regt (Camarthen Pals) has 11 WWI battle honours whereas the Welsh Regt (35 Bns) has 71 WWI battle honours, so I wonder which Battalion within the Weslh Regt was awarded the highest number of battle honours.... I hope this clarify's what I am hoping to discover. I am sure there is lots of expert knowledge out there who will be able to expand on this at Battalion level.

MG

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I don't agree with your post No.5 that battle hours were awarded at Regimental level. I have seen nore than a few examples of Bn histories that only mention that Bn's battle honours (see below). Battle honours were awarded to the Battalions present at defined actions. Many years after the War, when the Army contracted, the battle honours from the multiple battalions were carried (in some cases) by the remaining Battalion(s). In 1919, I don't think you would see any Service Bn or TF Bn or Militia Bn lay claim to battle honours awarded to other Battalions.

Martin - "Regimental Histories" are not "official documents". They are private publications which were (generally) generated at regimental / divisional or ex-regimental / ex-divisional level.

Battle honours which appear on the Regimental Colours were awarded at regimental level.

Tom

[Steven Broomfield]

A question, which someone can answer, I am sure.

Would the Colours of the 1st Battallion, Hampshire Regiment bear different Battle Honours to those of the 2nd Battalion, and different again to those of the 4th Battalion, the 5th Battalion, etc, etc?

I ask this because I am slightly uneasy with the thought that Battle Honours were awarded to Battalions: my understanding (which may well be wrong) is that Battle Honours were won by Battalions, but for the regiment. As already discussed, a Battle Honour might have been won by several battalions of the same regiment, but were carried by all battalions subsequently.

My suspicion is that we'll never know which battalion won most Battle Honours: it's difficult enough with regimental totals.

[Staffsyeoman]

A fair point from Broomers - well put.

I haven't got the time to do the legwork to do a test case, but consider the Service Battalions and Battle Honours. There were disbanded pretty rapidly post-war, but I bet the parent regiment retained any that were unique

to them.

And I know I'm comparing apples with oranges, but Royal Navy honours go to individual ships and

(I believe) are transported to successor ships of the same name.

[SteveE]

Army Order Nos. 338 (September 4th) and 470 (December 16th) along with Army Council Instruction No. 458 (September 8th) of 1922 laid out the conditions under which the Battle Honours were to be awarded to regiments in recognition of their services during the Great War.

There would be only one list per regiment; an Infantry Regiment would include each Regular, Special Reserve, Territorial and Service Battalion of that Regiment.

As Broomers suggests, Battle Honours were won by the Battalions but for the Regiment, for a Battle Honour to be awarded the headquarters and a minimum of fifty per cent. of the effective strength of the unit, exclusive of any drafts which although in the area had not actually joined, must have been present in the specified theatre of war to qualify for that particular Honour; the report of the Battles Nomenclature Committee giving the official tabulated lists of engagements, etc.,

Regimental Committees were set up under the chairmanship of the regimental colonels or their representatives, and from the Honours sanctioned a maximum number of ten were to be taken and borne on the Colours and Appointments, these ten Honours being identical for all battalions comprising the regiment.

I realise this is specific to Infantry Regiments but the ACIs and AO dealt with the Cavalry in a similar manner, I'll dig out the full text later this evening if I get chance.

Steve

[Guest]

Martin - "Regimental Histories" are not "official documents". They are private publications which were (generally) generated at regimental / divisional or ex-regimental / ex-divisional level.

Battle honours which appear on the Regimental Colours were awarded at regimental level.

Tom

Tom... While I would agree that honours which appear on the Regimental Colours were awarded at Regimental level, the Regiment is composed of many battalions, each of which were entitled their own battle honours on its King's Colour. The Regiment's battle honours on its King's Colour just reflect a limited selection of the combination of all the battalion's battle honours - the 'long' list. From researching this a bit more, it seems that most (?) Service Bn's did not receive their Colours (King's Colour and Regimental Colour) until after 1920 - presumbaly they had to await WO approval of the Regimental lists...but there is hard evidence that the King's Colours** of some separate battalions within a Regiment carried different battle honours.

* I have seen a few photos taken after Armistice of Service Battalions marching through towns on their return to the UK with plain King's Colours.

** The King's Colour was the colour that carried the WWI battle honours (and later the WWII) , the Regimental Colour carried the non WWI battle honours (and later non WWII)

[Edit] An example from the 15th and 16th Bn Cheshire Regt: On 17th Feb 1921 Colours were presented to a number of Service battalions. The battalions received a plain* King's Colour (there is a picture of the ceremony confirming this) and the battalion had it embroidered later at its own expense; the 15th Bn Colour bore the four honors 'Somme 1916-1918', 'Ypres 1917-1918' 'Bapaume 1918' and 'Courtai' while the 16th Bn Colour bore just two honours 'Ypres 1917' and 'Somme 1918'. [source: "Cheshire Bantams: 15th,16th & 17th Bns of the Cheshire Regiment" by Stephen McGreal page 235]. It seems that this is at least one example where the King's Colours of different battalions from the same Regiment bore different Battle honours.

Colours aside - I am not looking for the list of battle honours just on the King's Colour as it is by regulation a limited list . . ...I am looking for the battle honours that individual battalions are entitled to. When the long list of battle honours was compiled, the Regimental committees had to draw up a list of battle honours that each separate battalion was entitled to. These lists were then combined (many of the battle honours duplicated where multiple battalions from the same regiment fought at the same engagement) and were then approved for the Regiment by the War Office..... but this 'long' list is built up from lots of different battalion lists and I am looking for the single battalion that was entitled to the most number on the long lists.....if that makes sense. MG

Edit: Something like these wonderful lists showing the battle honours awarded to the various individual battalions

from the DLI HERE

and the KSLI HERE

and the border Regt HERE (compiled by the border Regt Museum)

and the Glosters HERE (gives numbers but not names) and its 8th Bn HERE

and the Royal Berkshire Regt and the Wiltshire (Duke of Edinburgh's) Regiment HERE

and the Buffs HERE (scroll down)

and 7th Bn Royal Sussex HERE indicating it was awarded 17 battle honours (compared to 69 at Regimental level)

etc... MG

[Colin W Taylor]

Could I interject?

How were the geographic areas of each battle determined and how were the durations calculated? (another committee?). Surely many divisions involved in subsidiary attacks missed out on honours in spite of fighting with distinction? For example 16th Irish Division during the Battle of Cambrai. Colin

[Guest]

Could I interject?

How were the geographic areas of each battle determined and how were the durations calculated? (another committee?). Surely many divisions involved in subsidiary attacks missed out on honours in spite of fighting with distinction? For example 16th Irish Division during the Battle of Cambrai. Colin

No., the same Committee. According to Brig James in 'British Regiments 1914-1919' each geographic area was also bounded by dates. Within the larger Battles e.g Somme, Ypres etc, there were also separate battle honours for separate battles within these larger battles. The Somme 1916 for example had battle honours for 12 separate battles. Any unit receiving one of these honours would I have "Somme 1916". "The Official Names of the Battles and Other Military Engagements Fought by the Military Forces of the British Empire During the Great War 1914-1919" (it was reprinted in 1993) and when it arrives I will hopefully be able to post an answer. MG

[Colin W Taylor]

Likewise,

Due to 'battle nomenclature' in some battles in 1918 a division could stop an attack one day and resume it the next but fighting as part of a different battle honour? Apologies for two posts, fat fingers, small pda!

Colin

[Steven Broomfield]

[Edit] An example from the 15th and 16th Bn Cheshire Regt: On 17th Feb 1921 Colours were presented to a number of Service battalions. The battalions received a plain* King's Colour (there is a picture of the ceremony confirming this) and the battalion had it embroidered later at its own expense; the 15th Bn Colour bore the four honors 'Somme 1916-1918', 'Ypres 1917-1918' 'Bapaume 1918' and 'Courtai' while the 16th Bn Colour bore just two honours 'Ypres 1917' and 'Somme 1918'. [source: "Cheshire Bantams: 15th,16th & 17th Bns of the Cheshire Regiment" by Stephen McGreal page 235]. It seems that this is at least one example where the King's Colours of different battalions from the same Regiment bore different Battle honours.

Here's a thing: as SteveE pointed out, Battle Honours were officially promulgated by AOs (etc) in 1922. Therefore, the "Honours" inscribed (at the battalions' own expense, it seems) on the various Colours noted above are, in all probability, highly UNofficial. The Battalions concerned were certainly AT the battles noted, but these were not official awards - therefore your thought that Battle Honours inscribed on Regimental Colours were awarded to individual battalions is wrong. They were, as I suggested and SteveE has confirmed, awarded on a Regimental basis, so I suspect we never will know which battalion "won" most honours.

[Guest]

Here's a thing: as SteveE pointed out, Battle Honours were officially promulgated by AOs (etc) in 1922. Therefore, the "Honours" inscribed (at the battalions' own expense, it seems) on the various Colours noted above are, in all probability, highly UNofficial. The Battalions concerned were certainly AT the battles noted, but these were not official awards - therefore your thought that Battle Honours inscribed on Regimental Colours were awarded to individual battalions is wrong. They were, as I suggested and SteveE has confirmed, awarded on a Regimental basis, so I suspect we never will know which battalion "won" most honours.

I have to politely disagree. There are Army Orders authorising battle honours for individual battalions and there are Army Orders authorising different battalions of the same regiment to carry different battle honours on their King's Colours. There are a number of exceptions to the 'general rule' or Army Orders/Army Council Instruction highlighted by SteveE.. i.e battalion King's Colours were not all identical (and they had authority for this). Also I note on the MOD website that the limitation of 10 battle honours was not implemented until 1924, some 2 years after the AO so perhaps standardisation did not happen until then, which might explain some of the anomalies already discussed in the period immediately after Armistaice to 1924. Some Regiments/Battalions either had additional authorisation to recognise different battle honours on their King's Colours (see example below) or they were ignoring the instruction to have identical battle honours on every battalion's King's Colour. The latter is highly improbable in my view, and I suspect there were many additional Army Orders authorising individual battalions to carry different battle honours

Another example from here and shown below.

"The 22nd London Regiment (The Queen's); ...

The 22nd London Regiment, formerly 3rd Volunteer Battalion The Queen's, received its Colours on 19th June 1909 at Windsor Castle from HM King Edward VII. These were the only Colours which the Battalion held, and were

quite distinct from those of the two 'County' Battalions of the Regiment.

[i.e the East Surrey or the Royal West Surrey Regts]

The King's Colour was the Great Union, with a gold Roman XXII in the first canton. In the centre was a red roundel bearing the Regimental title, "The London Regiment (County of London) surmounted by a King's Crown, and in the centre the title

"The Queen's".

After the Great War, this Colour was emblazoned with ten battle honours and it should be noted that these were

honours specifically awarded to the 22nd London by Army Order 55 of 1925.

YPRES 1917,

GAZA,

LOOS,

CAMBRAI 1917,

FESTUBERT 1915,

ALBERT 1918,

SOMME 1916, '18

JERUSALEM,

MESSINES 1917,

JORDAN"

When the 22nd Bn The London Regt became the 6th Bn Queen's and the 24th London became the 7th Bn Queen's they were entitled to carry the battle honours of the Queen's regiment (Army Order 150 of 1939) however the battle honour MACEDONIA 1916-17 replaced the battle honour HINDENBURG LINE carried on the other battalions' King's Colours under the authority of the same Army Order. In practise, the 6th Bn never changed their colours from those of the 22nd London Regt but the 7th Bn did.

So we now know two things:

1. There are Army Orders awarding battle honours to specific battalions (not Regiments) e.g. 22nd Bn London Regt (The Queen's); different battle honours from all other London Regt Bns and different battle honours from the The Queen's

2. There are Army Orders (subsequent to those of 1922) that authorised different battle honours to other battalions of the same regiment. e.g. 6th and 7th Bns The Queens Royal West Surrey Regt

There were authorised exceptions to the general rule. This Bn was the 6th Bn The Queen's Royal West Surrey Regt and the 7th Bn had authorisation for different battle honours from those of the 1st Bn the Queen's Royal West Surrey Regt. I am sure we will find many more instances. We will know which Battalions won which honours in some cases, and if someone researched it I am sure we would know in most cases as the majority of unit histories could be cobbled together. There were certainly some Regimental Associations who think that the battle honours were awarded to individual battalions....and certainly some Battalions who thought that as is evidenced by the embroidered colours. Why so many would think this if it was not authorised baffles me. Separate to all of the interesting debate above, I am still very interested to know which individual battalion was attributed/awarded/ associated with (whatever word suits) the most number of battle honours.

Some examples of the breakdown of battle honours:

from the DLI HERE

and the KSLI HERE

and the B.order Regt HERE (compiled by the border Regt Museum)..

and the Glosters HERE (gives numbers but not names) and its 8th Bn HERE

and the Royal Berkshire Regt and the Wiltshire (Duke of Edinburgh's) Regiment HERE

and the Buffs HERE (scroll down)

and 7th Bn Royal Sussex HERE indicating it was awarded 17 battle honours (compared to 69 at Regimental level)

etc...Why would these Regiments bother to identify Battalion level battle 'honours' (not awards). Can they all be wrong?

It would be interesting to see more examples of the Orders that authorised the battle honours (and any subsequent Orders authorising exceptions). There are enough Service Bn's out there with embroidered King's Colours hanging in churches to get a feel of how many saw this as authorised (rather than unauthorised). It seems clear that some Service Bns left theirs blank as they were disbanded very soon after being given their colours. Similarly some of the Regimental Associations have managed to preserve much of their history and may well have the original authorisation. I suspect as in many British Army traditions, different regiments took different attitudes. The fact that some Bns embroidered their colours at their own expense is not relevant in my view - in the immediate aftermath of WWI I would imagine austerity would be a priority and the Govt has a 300 year record of being tight-fisted. The debate is now (I believe) about what was authorised and what was actually done at Bn level. The timeline between the authorisation in the various Army Orders of 1922 and the disbandment of many (most?) of the Service Bns within a very short period of time does not provide for large body of documentary evidence, especially if we are to discard published Battalion histories as not being reliable i.e. not official documents. As primary sources of information, I would argue that if there is statistically enough evidence in these histories that many Regiments' battalions did not comply with the standardisation of battle honours, it might suggest supplementary battalion distinctions were issued. I think wholesale lack of compliance with Army Orders is highly unlikley. MG

[ARMAGH]

2nd Bn The Black Watch (RHR)

[SteveE]

Martin

You've made various points and arguments in your text that are, although compulsive, in my opinion flawed. I'll try to take each point in turn in my response but forgive me if this gets a bit messy. I've highlighted your text in blue.

"There are Army Orders authorising battle honours for individual battalions and there are Army Orders authorising different battalions of the same regiment to carry different battle honours on their King's Colours. There are a number of exceptions to the 'general rule' or Army Order highlighted by SteveE.. i.e battalion King's Colours were not all identical (and they had authority for this). Also I note on the MOD website that the limitation of 10 battle honours was not implemented until 1924, some 2 years after the AO so perhaps standardisation did not happen until then, which might explain some of the anomalies already discussed in the period immediately after Armistaice to 1924. Some Regiments/Battalions either had additional authorisation to recognise different battle honours on their King's Colours (see example below) or they were ignoring the instruction to have identical battle honours on every battalion's King's Colour. The latter is highly improbable in my view, and I suspect there were many additional Army Orders authorising individual battalions to carry different battle honours."

As far as I can tell with the information I have to hand the only Battle Honours awarded to individual battalions are for those belonging to the London Regiment with each battalion being treated as a separate entity, all other Honours were issued solely on a Regimental basis.

The limitation of 10 Great War battle honours was applied from the outset, Army Order 338 of 1922 stated "Regiments of Cavalry and Yeomanry, battalions of Infantry, Regular, Militia (Special Reserve), and Territorial, will have emblazoned on their Standards, guidons and Colours not more than 24 honours, of which not more than 10 will be "Great War" honours, to embrace the whole history of the regiment concerned from the date on which it was raised to the end of the Great War" This was subsequently amended by Army Order 470 of 1922 to obviate the necessity to remove honours already emblazoned on the colours to allow the additional 10 Great War honours.

The 1924 date would be when the Battle Honours were being finally approved for each Regiment (Army Order 49 of 1924), separate Lists were issued showing which Regiments had had their Honours approved (I only have Lists 2 & 3 (Army Order 96 of 1924 and Army Order 129 of 1924) to hand) but these were all cancelled by Army Order 55 of 1925 which authorised the definitive list. I suspect that no "Great War" Honours would have been emblazoned on the colours before the date that they were finally approved.

"Another example from here and shown below.

The 22nd London Regiment (The Queen's); ...The 22nd London Regiment, formerly 3rd Volunteer Battalion The Queen's, received its Colours on 19th June 1909 at Windsor Castle from HM King Edward VII. These were the only Colours which the Battalion held, and were quite distinct from those of the two 'County' Battalions of the Regiment.[i.e the East Surrey or the Royal West Surrey Regts]

The King's Colour was the Great Union, with a gold Roman XXII in the first canton. In the centre was a red roundel bearing the Regimental title, "The London Regiment (County of London) surmounted by a King's Crown, and in the centre the title "The Queen's".

After the Great War, this Colour was emblazoned with ten battle honours and it should be noted that these were honours specifically awarded to the 22nd London by Army Order 55 of 1925. YPRES 1917, GAZA, LOOS, CAMBRAI 1917, FESTUBERT 1915, ALBERT 1918, SOMME 1916, '18, JERUSALEM, MESSINES 1917, JORDAN".

I've covered this in my previous paragraph but the 22nd Battalion London Regiment, as all battalions of that Regiment, were treated as a separate entity and as such would have different Battle Honours to those of it's sister battalions and affiliated Regiments. The London Regiment, for whatever reason, was the exception to the rule, no battalions of any other Regiment were treated similarly. Army Order 55 of 1925 was the definitive list of Battle Honours awarded, there were a few subsequent minor alterations but to all intents and purposes it is the definitive list.

When the 22nd Bn The London Regt became the 6th Bn Queen's and the 24th London became the 7th Bn Queen's they were entitled to carry the battle honours of the Queen's regiment (Army Order 150 of 1939) however the battle honour MACEDONIA 1916-17 replaced the battle honour HINDENBURG LINE carried on the other battalions' King's Colours under the authority of the same Army Order. In practise, the 6th Bn never changed their colours from those of the 22nd London Regt but the 7th Bn did.

So we now know two things:

1. There are Army Orders awarding battle honours to specific battalions (not Regiments) e.g. 22nd Bn London Regt (The Queen's); different battle honours from all other London Regt Bns and different battle honours from the The Queen's

2. There are Army Orders (subsequent to those of 1922) that authorised different battle honours to other battalions of the same regiment. e.g. 6th and 7th Bns The Queens Royal West Surrey Regt

With all due respect we're dealing with the situation of awarding Battle Honours directly after the Great War to units that were involved and not subsequent changes when the Army decided to restructure, that is counterproductive and will lead us nowhere fast.

I'll reiterate again that the London Regiment battalions, for whatever reason, were the exception to the rule, no battalions of any other Regiment were treated similarly in being issued individual Battle Honours according to Army Orders etc.

There were authorised exceptions to the general rule. This Bn was the 6th Bn The Queen's Royal West Surrey Regt and the 7th Bn had authorisation for different battle honours from those of the 1st Bn the Queen's Royal West Surrey Regt. I am sure we will find many more instances. We will know which Battalions won which honours in some cases, and if someone researched it I am sure we would know in most cases as the majority of unit histories could be cobbled together. There were certainly some Regimental Associations who think that the battle honours were awarded to individual battalions....and certainly some Battalions who thought that as is evidenced by the embroidered colours. Why so many would think this if it was not authorised baffles me. Separate to all of the interesting debate above, I am still very interested to know which individual battalion was attributed/awarded/ associated with (whatever word suits) the most number of battle honours.

I would imagine that when the Regiment was deciding what Battle Honours should be claimed then each Battalion had an input into what should or shouldn't be claimed as each Battalion/unit had to show that it's Headquarters and at least 50% of it's effective strength were present in order for the Regiment to claim the Honour. Army Council Instruction 458 of 1922 stated "Regimental committees, to which a representative of every battalion, whether still existing or not, must be invited, will be convened by the colonels of regiments and corps to prepare lists of Battle Honours as claimed by the regiment or corps as a whole, for the purpose of printing in the Army List, and further lists showing the Honours selected for emblazoning on the colours, standards and guidons."

Some examples of the breakdown of battle honours:

from the DLI HERE

and the KSLI HERE

and the border Regt HERE (compiled by the border Regt Museum)..

and the Glosters HERE (gives numbers but not names) and its 8th Bn HERE

and the Royal Berkshire Regt and the Wiltshire (Duke of Edinburgh's) Regiment HERE

and the Buffs HERE

and 7th Bn Royal Sussex HERE indicating it was awarded 17 battle honours (compared to 69 at Regimental level)

etc...Why would these Regiments bother to identify Battalion level battle 'honours' (not awards). Can they all be wrong?

Presumably the Battle Honours claimed above are those put forward to the Regimental committee when deciding what Battle Honours the Regiment would claim. These were not authorised at Battalion level (London Regiment battalions excepted) but at Regimental level.

It would be interesting to see an example of the Orders that authorised the battle honours (and any subsequent Orders authorising exceptions).

I'll try and scan those I've got and post them at a later date.

There are enough Service Bn's out there with embroidered King's Colours hanging in churches to get a feel of how many saw this as authorised rather than unauthorised. It seems clear that some Service Bns left theirs blank as they were disbanded very soon after being given their colours. Similarly some of the Regimental Associations have managed to preserve much of their history and may well have the original authorisation. I suspect as in many British Army traditions, different regiments took different attitudes. The fact that some Bns embroidered their colours at their own expense is not relevant in my view - in the immediate aftermath of WWI I would imagine austerity would be a priority and the Govt has a 300 year record of being tight-fisted. The debate is now (I believe) about what was authorised and what was actually done at Bn level. The timeline between the authorisation in the various Army Orders of 1922 and the disbandment of many (most?) of the Service Bns within a very short period of time does not provide for large body of documentary evidence, especially if we are to discard published Battalion histories as not being reliable i.e. not official documents. As primary sources of information, I would argue that if there is statistically enough evidence in these histories that many Regiments' battalions did not comply with the standardisation of battle honours, it might suggest supplementary battalion distinctions were issued or a wholesale non-compliance with the original Army Order. I think the latter is unlikley.

This is a whole different can of worms, Service Battalions of Regiments didn't have King's Colours per se. What they were issued with was a Union Flag which was to be treated with all respect and honour as a King's Colour but was not a Colour proper (General Routine Orders No. 5734 and 5858 of 1918 and Army Council Instruction 444 of 1919 apply).

Army Council Instruction 444 states:

"5. The flags as issued are plain Union flags, and no additions except as mentioned below can be sanctioned.

6. Certain Battalions to whom these flags have been issued having expressed a desire to have their titles and numerals embroidered theron at their own expense, permission is given for these additions to be made, provided they are in accordance with the design approved for a King's Colour."

Nowhere does it state that Battle Honours are to be applied to the Flag, the fact that some battalions did would appear to be as unofficial addition.

Apologies for the length of this post.

Steve

[dycer]

Another point to consider in this discussion. Were individual Battalions,except the London Regiment,"correct" in claiming "WW1 Battle Honours"?

For example, the 8th Royal Scots History merely records its "WW1 Engagements",e.g."Ypres(Menin Road),20th September 1917."Menin Road" was recognised by the Committee "as a supporting operation which would receive a battle honour which would not be displayed on the colours"."Ypres 1915,1917,1918" being authorised to be carried on the Regiment's Queen's Colour.

I appreciate the meaning of "Battalion engagements" and "Battalion battle honours" are much the same and acknowledge that the men who served,at the time,would be rather dismissive of their work at a particular event only being recognised as an "engagement" not an "honour".

However,for historical discussion purposes is it not better to assume that Battalions,excluding the London Regiment,only had "engagements" during WW1?

Which Battalion had the most,of course,is still the unanswered question.

George

[SteveE]

The London Regiment, for whatever reason, was the exception to the rule, no battalions of any other Regiment were treated similarly.

I've since discovered that the "for whatever reason" is covered by Army Council Instruction 458 of 1922 which I missed first time round.

"5. Territorial units which do not form an integral part of, as distinct from affiliation to, a Regular regiment or corps as shown in the Army List will be treated as separate regiments or corps for the purpose of the award of Battle Honours."

Steve

[SteveE]

George

I suspect that the "Report of the Battles Nomenclature Committee" covers the terminology governing the Battles, Operations, Engagements etc. and would answer your post. Sadly I don't have the Report but when Martin gets his copy hopefully a suitable response will be received.

Steve

[Steven Broomfield]

I've since discovered that the "for whatever reason" is covered by Army Council Instruction 458 of 1922 which I missed first time round.

"5. Territorial units which do not form an integral part of, as distinct from affiliation to, a Regular regiment or corps as shown in the Army List will be treated as separate regiments or corps for the purpose of the award of Battle Honours."

Steve

Which presumably would therefore include such as the Monmouthshire Regiment, Hetrfordshire Regiment, etc.

Interestingly, what happened in the case of the Monmouths? Pre-war there were three battalions: one assumes they combined iinto a set of regimental Battle Honours.

[themonsstar]

Here are some pages from the Manchester Regt Gazette on Battles & Losses at one piont the Regt had 26th Battalions in the line

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