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WWI Battle Honours


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Martin,

From the Book "The Royal Scots,a concise History" by Trevor Royle.

Battle Honours

"After the First World War there were further refinements to take cognisance of the size and complexity of the conflict.It was agreed that each regiment could carry ten major battle honours on their Kings Colour,but supporting operations would also receive battle honours which would not be displayed on the colours."

I count 71 battle honours "awarded" to the Regiment in WW1 including the 10 it carried on its Queen's Colour, from the Book.

George

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Martin,

From the Book "The Royal Scots,a concise History" by Trevor Royle.

Battle Honours

"After the First World War there were further refinements to take cognisance of the size and complexity of the conflict.It was agreed that each regiment could carry ten major battle honours on their Kings Colour,but supporting operations would also receive battle honours which would not be displayed on the colours."

I count 71 Battle Honours "awarded" to the Regiment in WW1, from the Book.

George

Thanks George. Can anyone improve on 71?

Edit: I think I will have to amend my cirterion from Regiments to Battalion, otherwise the large city based Infantry Regiments with dozens of battalions will completely dominate.... Within the many Bns of the Royal Scots, do you know which Bn had the most?

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Martin,

The Royal Scots "raised,fielded" 35 Battalions,in WW1.

I know how many WWI "engagement honours" their 8th Battalion "claimed",from its immediate post-WW1 written history but then again how does "Ypres(Steenbeck),August 1917" translate into their past i.e before amalgamation Regimental Queen's Colour,which displayed "Ypres,1915,1917,1918"?

George

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... I think I will have to amend my cirterion from Regiments to Battalion, otherwise the large city based Infantry Regiments with dozens of battalions will completely dominate....

Martin – I don’t think you can do that, as the battle honours for inclusion on the colours were awarded on a regimental basis and (as I understand it) the full lists of honours claimed, from which the ten were chosen, were not listed by specific battalions.

Tom

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Martin,

I agree with Tom.

The Royal Scots are/were the "First of Foot" and probably served in most major British military conflicts,with their Queen's Colour,acknowledging the fact.

But how can anyone translate individual Battalion's WW1 engagements,within a Regiment numerically,to come up with the highest Regimental score and thus say this was the Regiment that saw the most service in WW1?

George

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Hello - Does anyone have any idea which Regiment or Battalion had the highest number of WWI Battle honours?

The answer is simple, look up the word 'Ubique' and who has that on their colours instead of battle honours. Mind you, do the Royal Engineers or Royal Artillery count in your thinking of Regiment or Battalion?

REgards

Nick

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The answer is simple, look up the word 'Ubique' and who has that on their colours instead of battle honours. Mind you, do the Royal Engineers or Royal Artillery count in your thinking of Regiment or Battalion ...

Nice try Nick :lol:

The examples you quote date from the second quarter of the 19th Century and owe nothing to WW1; nor is it a battle honour as such.

Tom

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The Hampshire Regiment has 82 WW1 Battle Honours. I think that's the highest, Middlesex Regt has 81.

Relevant topic > here <

The last post (# 16) by Nigel Cave also quotes different totals for these two regiments.

Tom

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Hi Tom. That's interesting. The figures I posted came from Brig James British Regiments 1914-1918. However, when I manually add them up using n&mp "Battle Honours awarded for the Great War" they are closer to those (or the same)* on the other thread. 92 & 93

* I might be counting something twice.

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I think I see what's going on. EA James "The British Regiments 1914-1918" appears to be totalling names only ie: things like Ypres 1914, 15, 17 (One battle Honour not three)

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I think I see what's going on. EA James "The British Regiments 1914-1918" appears to be totalling names only ie: things like Ypres 1914, 15, 17 (One battle Honour not three)

I had wondered if that might be a problem.

Also, looking at some of the battalion lists within regimental lists you’ll see things like “16th Blogshires – Somme 1916”, then “19th Blogshires – Somme 1916” as well. On the regimental (totals) list that would just appear once as “Somme 1916”, but if you added up all the battalion lists it could be counted twice, or possibly more if other battalions also claimed “Somme 1916” as well.

Tom

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Nice try Nick :lol:

The examples you quote date from the second quarter of the 19th Century and owe nothing to WW1; nor is it a battle honour as such.

Tom

Think you better have another look Tom, yes 'Ubique' was bestowed upon the RE and RA by William IV in 1830's in lieu of battle honours prior to that date but it is also applies for all battle honours since as well. and as the 'nine mile snipers' and the 'bridgeheads' have been in every conflict the British Army has ever been in it made sense to simply have 'Everywhere' as the battle honour. In WW1 the Sappers won 20 VC's and the Gunners 18. thumbsup.png So really have to take them out of the equation when working out who won the most Battle Honours?

REgards

Nick

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Blimey.

Thank you all for your contributions.

Surely each Bn has battle honours and it is wrong to bundle them together. I don't think Battle honours were awarded at Regimental level for the infantry, surely at Bn level?? In 1919 did the 1st Bn colours of any infantry Regiment carry the battle honours for any engagement it didn't fight in? I find it strange that any Bn would want to carry battle honours for battles it did not fight. I assume (please correct me if I am wrong) that each Bn (Reg, Kitchener, TF etc) had its own colours, and its own Battle honours. ...maybe putting the question another way will help: Which unit (Regt (as in Cavalry Regt), of Battalion) had the most number of battle honours from WWI?

I thing Ypres 1914, 1915, 1917 counts as three in my book.

I understand the point on Ubique but to the uninitiated that meant 'all over the place' when I served laugh.gif (I am an ex RE....well ...Queen's Gurkha Engineer to be precise)....so can anyone tell me which Battalion had the most? Someone tells me it is a cavalry regt although I severly doubt this..... MG

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Martin,

If you reread my post about post-War Battle Honours(I'm not being cheeky :D ).

"It was agreed which would and would not be displayed on the colours".

This seems to answer your question but a point to note the 8th Royal Scots do not claim " WW1 Battle Honours" in their History merely "WW1 Engagements".

This Battalion served on the Western Front throughout the War and claimed the appropriate "Engagements" but as the Regimental Queens Colour carries "Struma.Gallipoli 1915,1916 and Palestine 1917-1918 as well as the Somme 1916,1918,etc" it is merely displaying and acknowledging all the major WW1 Battles its many Battalions saw service in.

George

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"Surely each Bn has battle honours and it is wrong to bundle them together. I don't think Battle honours were awarded at Regimental level for the infantry, surely at Bn level?"

I always thought the thing about Battle Honours was that they were awarded to the Battalion for the glory of the Regiment not for the Battalion itself.

"In 1919 did the 1st Bn colours of any infantry Regiment carry the battle honours for any engagement it didn't fight in? I find it strange that any Bn would want to carry battle honours for battles it did not fight."

I would guess so. As George said, under the rules there were only so many Honours that could be embroidered onto the Colours be it King's or Regimental.

"Which unit (Regt (as in Cavalry Regt), of Battalion) had the most number of battle honours from WWI?"

Not sure but here's an example to get the ball rolling. Falls' History First 7 Bns Royal Irish Rifles. 1st Bn = 13, 2nd Bn = 28, 6th Bn = 10, 7th Bn = 7. Of the 8th to 16th Bns, the 12th looks to have the most 15.

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Martin,

The Royal Scots "raised,fielded" 35 Battalions,in WW1.

George

Sorry to be pedantic, but I beg to differ - it may have consisted of 35 battalions(not all War raised), but it only "fielded" 14 of them. The remainder were either Home Service or Garrison battalions.

The "fielded" battalions where;-

1st

2nd

1/4th(TF)

1/5th(TF)

1/6th(TF)

1/7th(TF)

1/8th(TF)

1/9th(TF)

11th(Service)

12th(Service)

13th(Service)

15th(Service)

16th(Service)

17th(Service)

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Graham,

Agreed many raised Battalions served in Scotland,England and Ireland but to your list you need to add

2/10th Battalion-Russia(Archangel 1918-1919 was claimed as an Engagement)

1st Garrison Battalion-Mudros,Egypt(Egypt 1915-1916 claimed as an Engagement)

George

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From Chalky, Moderater on the Black Watch Forum.

During the Great War the Black Watch had 25 battalions. I think the list here is the shared Battle Honours.

Retreat from Mons,

Marne 1914 '18,

Aisne 1914,

La Bassée 1914,

Ypres 1914 '17 '18,

Langemarck 1914,

Gheluvelt,

Nonne Bosschen,

Givenchy 1914,

Neuve Chapelle,

Aubers,

Festubert 1915,

Loos,

Somme 1916 '18,

Albert 1916,

Bazentin,

Delville Wood,

Pozières,

Flers-Courcelette,

Morval,

Thiepval,

Le Transloy,

Ancre Heights,

Ancre 1916,

Arras 1917 '18,

Vimy 1917,

Scarpe 1917 '18,

Arleux,

Pilckem,

Menin Road,

Polygon Wood,

Poelcappelle,

Passchendaele,

Cambrai 1917 '18,

St Quentin,

Bapaume 1918,

Rosières,

Lys,

Estaires,

Messines 1918,

Hazebrouck,

Kemmel,

Béthune,

Scherpenberg,

Soissonnais-Ourcq,

Tardenois,

Drocourt-Quéant,

Hindenburg Line,

Épéhy,

St Quentin Canal,

Beaurevoir,

Courtrai,

Selle,

Sambre,

France and Flanders 1914-18,

Doiran 1917,

Macedonia 1915-18,

Egypt 1916,

Gaza,

Jerusalem,

Tell'Asur,

Megiddo,

Sharon,

Damascus,

Palestine 1917-18,

Tigris 1916,

Kut al Amara 1917,

Baghdad,

Mesopotamia 1915-17

Total 69

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Another interesting fact is the Royal Marines do not have battle honours either, the globe on their cap badge has pretty much the same meaning as Ubique. But individual ships of the RN do have battle honours, The British Armed Forces do have their strange ways and traditions? (and may it long continue) My thought now is who decided, where, when and which unit received a battle honour and what is the criteria so you can embroider it on your colours?

Nick

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Martin,

If you reread my post about post-War Battle Honours(I'm not being cheeky :D ).

"It was agreed which would and would not be displayed on the colours".

This seems to answer your question but a point to note the 8th Royal Scots do not claim " WW1 Battle Honours" in their History merely "WW1 Engagements".

This Battalion served on the Western Front throughout the War and claimed the appropriate "Engagements" but as the Regimental Queens Colour carries "Struma.Gallipoli 1915,1916 and Palestine 1917-1918 as well as the Somme 1916,1918,etc" it is merely displaying and acknowledging all the major WW1 Battles its many Battalions saw service in.

George

Thanks George....I can see that I am causing confusion...when I refer to 'Regiment' it is in the context of a Cavalry Regiment, not an Infantry Regiment..[Edit: I have amended the sub-title of the original post to make it clearer).. ..With regards to the Infantry, I take the view that the Battalion is the identifiable unit rather than 'Regiment' as the 'Regiment' is the umbrella organisation. Each battalion would have its own identity and culture - many of the Bn's had their own separate titles and in some cases separate insignia, and histories stretching back to their Milita or Rifle Volunteer histories or separate identities within the Kitchener Army pahes such as the Pals battalions.......apologies if this was not clear enough in the original post.

Taking the Royal Scots as an example, who had 34 Battalions in WWI and had 71 battle honours between them...but not all 34 Battalions fought at all 71 battles. The 'Regiment' carries all the Battle Honours (albeit there are a limited number actually on the colours) but I am curious to learn which Battalion won the most number of those 71 Battle honours. {Source : British Regiments 1914-1918 by Brig E A James]

Others have highlighted "British Regiments 1914-1918" which has an appendix with a list of the Infantry Regiments, number of Bns and number of WWI battle honours. As has already been pointed out, the Hampshire Regt has 82 battle honours from WWI (the highest of any infantry 'Regiment').... I am curious to know which Bn of the Hampshire Regiment won the most of these 82 battle honours.... It is quite possible that the single Bn that won the highest number of battle honours comes from another Regiment.....my instincts tell me it will be a regular Bn (probably with the BEF) as they went to war in August 1914 and the Service and TF Bns went to war later.

MG

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"Which unit (Regt (as in Cavalry Regt), of Battalion) had the most number of battle honours from WWI?"

Not sure but here's an example to get the ball rolling. Falls' History First 7 Bns Royal Irish Rifles. 1st Bn = 13, 2nd Bn = 28, 6th Bn = 10, 7th Bn = 7. Of the 8th to 16th Bns, the 12th looks to have the most 15.

Thanks Ulsterlad - this is exactly what I am looking for... MG

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In "British Regiments 1914-18" by Brig E A James I just noticed there is an interesting summary of how Battle Honours were decided on.

The Battles Nomenclature Committee published a report in 1920 called "The Official Names of the Battles and Other Military Engagements Fought by the Military Forces of the British Empire During the Great War 1914-1919" *. It was 63 pages long and cost nine pence.

In order to qualify for a Battle Honour a unit had to have its HQ and half of its strength within the boundaries of the battle between the dates laid out in the report. It makes it clear that the 'first step was to decide on the entitlement of each
battalion....
then the results were combined to form a list of battle honours for the
Regiment
to be approved by the War Office [My italics] A complete list for the Great War was issued with Army Orders for Feb 1925. Ten of the honours were selected to be borne on the King's Colour

Service in a theatre of war counted as a battle honour. Some operations on the Western Front were on a large scale and the Committee decided to treat them as a Group of Battles. The Battle of the Somme in 1916 (1st Jul- 18th Nov) consisted of 12 separate battles and Ypres 1917 (31st Jul - 10th Nov) consisted of 8 battles. Regiments received battle honours for the main Battles as well as the individual ones, e.g. those with any of the 12 Somme battles would also have "Somme 1916". Battles fought over the same ground are distinguished by the year in which they took place and are regarded as separate battle honours. e.g "Ypres 1914" and "Ypres 1915"

In 1951 Army Order 136 approved the grant of more battle honours to various regiments from the Seven Years War to the Great War and some changes were made in the King's Colour honours.

* Great Britain Battles Nomenclature Committee (1919-1921) (1922, reprinted 1993). Official Names of the Battles and Other Engagements Fought by the Military Forces of the British Empire During the Great War, 1914-1919, and the Third Afghan War, 1919. The Naval & Military Press. ISBN 1897632061. I just ordered my copy.

Regards MG

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Martin,

As ever the great British Committee,made up of the good and great of the time,made the decision and we,in in the 21st Century,just have to live with the Committee's post 1919 decision. :D

George

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