Should I add a clasp to these medals

[auchonvillerssomme]

It doesn't matter how you dress it up or quote 'experts' the logic is that the bar wasn't claimed and wasn't issued therefore it doesn't exist in relation to this group.

As an aside even if it did and it had got lost I wouldn't agree with replacing an original with a reproduction just to enhance the group.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The trouble with this Clasp is it was a sew on type, had they been "proper" Clasps like QSA ones, etc; there would be no quandry, had they not been issued,"Not on Roll"; Thus not entitled to "Add On".For some reason it has almost become acceptable in some quarters to add the 1914 Clasp,just because the MiC shows a prescence prior to 22nd November 1914.One would not add a Defence of Mafeking clasp to a QSA that wasnt confirmed on the Documentation,so why oh why add a 1914 Clasp to the Star, if for what ever reason the Clasp wasn't claimed/issued.It is fiddling with history, albiet in a small way,notes that may confirm that the addition is/was unconfirmed and added by a collector get lost,So for my twopenneth,leave well alone and replace that group with an entitled Star Trio; if the need for a Clasp is that urgent??

But please check your punctuation,as reason does not sit well with understanding

Dycer; George,Please check punctuation,is that better ? {I am now undergoing anti traumatisation counselling having been returned to the nightmare scenario of Skool}

[dycer]

Harry,

I concur with your assertion.

But please check your punctuation,as reason does not sit well with understanding.

George

[nthornton1979]

As a medal collector I haven'y yet found myself in this situation and to be honest I can see both arguments for and against.

Neil

[auchonvillerssomme]

Not quite the same but I have come across it in relation to WW2, I know of 2 Air Crew Europe groups attributed to the same man with photocopied documents, the son made both groups up himself because dad hadn't claimed them, kept one and sold one. The flaw in these groups is that they also contain the France and Germany Star.

[Staffsyeoman]

Straying off the point slightly, but echoing the above - I attend a naval reunion every year with my partner, whose late father was the member. THe veterans parade on a Sunday morning with a motley assortment of medal groups, but almost all have the Atlantic Star. Year in, year out one turns up wearing in his group an Atlantic Star and a France and Germany Star. This is not possible, as a 'France and Germany' clasp was given to those qualifying for the Atlantic Star first; an 'Atlantic' clasp to the F&G if that was earned first. So clearly, he has self-awarded one of them on the basis of self-determined 'entitlement'... this doesn't make it 'right'.

[dycer]

So are we suggesting that I, as a Nephew of WWI 1914 Star earners,without Clasps, has the right to attend "1914 Old Contemptible Reunions" wearing or not my Trios?

I really hope that my children's old School ask me "in 2014" have you any WW1 memorabilia that we can display, learn from but keep safe and return to you.

George

[simon2]

This has been an interesting post.

My own views are for and against.

As the clasp in question was awarded for being under fire within the qualifying dates then obviously it can only be worn if that was the case and it was claimed. If an entitlement

to the clasp exists but no clasp was claimed then it should still not be worn and then the trio would be historically accurate.

However, if the trio was to be hung on my wall (especially if it was a family member) and I know the entitlement to the clasp exists but was never claimed, I would sleep well at night

putting a clasp on knowing the person in question was entitled for what he went through but for whatever reason did not claim it. To me this is not deceiving in anyway.

Putting that aside, if a clasp was added so the trio could be sold knowing that it was never issued that would be deceitful.

To add, I am not a collector,historian or expert in anyway so my views come from a touch of common sense and from the heart.

Simon.

P.S. My GG Harold Evans RMLI was entitled to a clasp,claimed it and it was issued.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I suppose another issue would be is that if we were relying just on the MIC's are they 100% accurate in relation to the clasp issue?

Take this all the way forward to today, I wonder how many veterans have applied for their veterans badge from the government and how many will appear connected to groups in the future.

[dycer]

I suppose another issue would be is that if we were relying just on the MIC's are they 100% accurate in relation to the clasp issue?

AC,

No, we cannot just rely on the MIC's.

I would recommend the original Battalion Star Roll be checked as well but even these may be inaccurate.

George

[headgardener]

I suppose another issue would be is that if we were relying just on the MIC's are they 100% accurate in relation to the clasp issue?

No, we cannot just rely on the MIC's.

I would recommend the original Battalion Star Roll be checked as well but even these may be inaccurate.

I think it's already been mentioned by Robert that clasps could be bought directly from tailors, so it was perfectly possible for someone to add a clasp to their trio without ever having to apply to the AMO. So we will never know how many men purchased (and wore) a clasp on their 14 star ribbon yet whose MIC and medal roll fail to record a clasp being issued.

[wainfleet]

Suppose I have a soldier's tunic that's named and is perfectly plain, having been worn that way (as they often were). I find that he served in X battalion in Y division, and was entitled to three overseas service chevrons. Do I make holes in the shoulder straps to add titles, and stitch on signs and chevrons? Absolutely, categorically No! That would be a piece of vandalism.

I think the same principle applies here. The soldier owned the medals without the clasp. The family did not apply for it, which is the only justification I can see for adding it on. Therefore I too regard this as tinkering with history. Hopefully we respect the original owner of the medals, in which case we should surely respect his choice of not applying for the clasp.

[Howard Chamberlain]

To me this is very simple. If the recipient of the 1914 Star was not issued with the clasp and rosette, and did not apply for the clasp and rosette thereafter then it a clasp original or copy should not be added.

It is an entirely different story if the clasp and rosette were lost / misplaced.

[Old Owl]

To me this is very simple. If the recipient of the 1914 Star was not issued with the clasp and rosette, and did not apply for the clasp and rosette thereafter then it a clasp original or copy should not be added.

It is an entirely different story if the clasp and rosette were lost / misplaced.

Howard,

As was pointed out in previous posts, it is quite possible that a clasp was purchased from a military tailor by the man in question, and so will never know whether or not a clasp was worn. Thus the issue as to whether or not the clasp was claimed or issued is irrelevant, the fact that the man was entitled is the main factor in this debate--it is quite possible that he wore one and that it was subsequently lost. We will of course never know for certain--but this means that a clasp can be added to said trio without deceiving anyone or even rewriting history, as was suggested by a certain misguided correspondent .

I rest my case.

Robert

[auchonvillerssomme]

Tenuous, and what are the original references for this?

[Old Owl]

Tenuous, and what are the original references for this?

Tenuous it may, be but it is no less tenuous than your own argument.

I can only assume that Howard Williamson would have checked the facts prior to publishing his book. Perhaps you should give him the third degree regarding this

It is certainly well known that regimental tailors supplied these clasps--usually the slide on type, but according to Howard they were issued direct to them from or via the MOD.

[Old Owl]

The soldier owned the medals without the clasp. The family did not apply for it, which is the only justification I can see for adding it on. Therefore I too regard this as tinkering with history. Hopefully we respect the original owner of the medals, in which case we should surely respect his choice of not applying for the clasp.

Wainfleet,

You cannot make this statement, as it is quite impossible to know whether or not he ever wore a clasp. Please read posts regarding this

Robert

[dycer]

Robert,

My assertion is that if there is evidence e.g. on the MIC, that a Clasp was claimed and issued but over the years has been lost it is quite legitimate for the now Owners. of the Medals, to purchase a replacement to display with the Medals.

However,if the MIC does not show that a Clasp was ever claimed,although there may be evidence on the Ribbon,to show that an "unofficial" one was worn,it is wrong of the now Owner, of the Medals, to buy a replacement to just display the Medals, as once worn.

If we go back to the original post.There is clear evidence from the Service Papers that the man was wounded during the qualifying period and would have,therefore,been entitled to a Clasp had he claimed one.Is it now legitimate to display a Clasp with his Medals?My answer is still no.

Best wishes

George

[Old Owl]

Robert,

My assertion is that if there is evidence e.g. on the MIC, that a Clasp was claimed and issued but over the years has been lost it is quite legitimate for the now Owners. of the Medals, to purchase a replacement to display with the Medals.

However,if the MIC does not show that a Clasp was ever claimed,although there may be evidence on the Ribbon,to show that an "unofficial" one was worn,it is wrong of the now Owner, of the Medals, to buy a replacement to just display the Medals, as once worn.

If we go back to the original post.There is clear evidence from the Service Papers that the man was wounded during the qualifying period and would have,therefore,been entitled to a Clasp had he claimed one.Is it now legitimate to display a Clasp with his Medals?My answer is still no.

Best wishes

George

George,

As has already been shown, many men chose not to apply for the clasp, for whatever reason, but found it easier to purchase one from a military tailor. So entitlement to wear is here the over-riding factor and not whether or not the clasp was officially issued.

If Howard Williamson is correct, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, then I can only assume that the MOD saw it in this same light ie. It was not neccessary for the clasp to be issued officially for the entitled person to wear said clasp.

I rather feel that we shall have to agree to disagree on this?

Robert

[wainfleet]

Wainfleet,

You cannot make this statement, as it is quite impossible to know whether or not he ever wore a clasp. Please read posts regarding this

Robert

Hello Robert

As you've said, we can't know for sure whether the original owner ever put a clasp with this trio, but we can make a reasonable guess. Since the MIC shows he never applied for it and the trio came without one, the balance of probability is that there has never been one with it. Therefore I personally would not add one. If we knew that a clasp had got separated from it, then you could make a case for replacing it. But we don't know that, in which case my view is, don't tinker with it, leave it as it came.

The OP asked for opinions and this is still mine!

Regards,

W.

Edited 9 August , 2011 by Wainfleet

[Old Owl]

Hi Wainfleet,

I guess it's a 50/50 dilemma, one that the new owner has to decide upon, it is neither right nor wrong, this would be my interpretation of the facts.

The thing that has annoyed me is the fact of this being made out to be some sort of deception (or rewriting of history), which has been quoted by numerous people whom I feel should know better.

Regards,

Robert

[dycer]

Robert,

I agree we agree to disagree.

I still have a problem though. Should I take my Uncles Trios out the envelopes they were delivered in,have them mounted and add unclaimed Clasps,assuming they got to the Front in time?

It's a rhetorical question.They've been in their envelopes for 90 years and that's where they'll remain, without Clasps.

George

[Old Owl]

Not quite the same but I have come across it in relation to WW2, I know of 2 Air Crew Europe groups attributed to the same man with photocopied documents, the son made both groups up himself because dad hadn't claimed them, kept one and sold one. The flaw in these groups is that they also contain the France and Germany Star.

With respect, this bears no relation to the topic under discussion, in any shape or form--this is just blatant dishonesty

[Old Owl]

Robert,

I agree we agree to disagree.

I still have a problem though. Should I take my Uncles Trios out the envelopes they were delivered in,have them mounted and add unclaimed Clasps,assuming they got to the Front in time?

It's a rhetorical question.They've been in their envelopes for 90 years and that's where they'll remain, without Clasps.

George

George,

I know this was a rhetorical question--but you would still have to ascertain whether or not they had an entitlement to the clasps before you could even ask yourself this rhetorical question!! If you see what I mean?

Robert

P.S. Sorry, I had to delete your emoticons because I was told that I had made a post with too many emoticons--what do they know?--they ain't seen nothing yet!!.

[dycer]

Ah, Robert,that's the point, I cannot as their Service Papers have been destroyed.

They both landed in France, with their TF Battalion, on 5th November 1914, per their MIC's.

The Battalion is recognised as one that served at the Front before midnight 22/23 November 1914 and from the relevant Star Roll Men did claim and receive their Clasp and Roses.

The relevant War Diary entries.

15th November 1914-Battalion furnished digging parties for Battalions holding the trenches in the vicinity of La Boutillerie.

16th November 1914-A&F Coys.went into trenches with 1st R.W.Fusiliers and B&G Coys. with 2nd R.W.Regiment.The remaining Companies remained in Billets in Fleurbaix and furnished nightly working parties.

20th November 1914-Companies in trenches relieved.

So on the balance of probabilities they were entitled to the Clasp unless they both conveniently took a few days off to sight-see, in France, between 5th and 23rd November.

However,I can understand why the Family did not make an application for Clasps, at the time, as they would not have had access to the Service Papers and may have been unable to speak to an ex-member of the Battalion, who received his Clasp, to confirm that my Uncles actually served in the trenches in the period up to 22 November 1914 or were members of a working party as they were both in the Battalion Maxim Gun Section.

George