Mysterious redcross uniform?

[frankiegreen]

Hello All, I wonder if you can help me. Recently I bought from a respectable auction what was described as a WW1 nurses red cross uniform dress. (Described as such by their costume consultant). I bought it but now think it is more likely to be interwar? I have the red cross uniform descriptions sent me by the museum and although it has many of the features of the 1917/30 uniforms it fits in with neither, seeming to lay somewhere in between. The dress and the collars, cuffs, apron are all named to Gwendoline Davies 125 Ambulance. The collars are all detached some are large and would fit flat if this makes sense and seem to be made of a thick paper some are about 1 inch stand up. 2 x cuffs have a date stamped under the coat of arms saying 1923 this is different to the stamped laundry mark. The apron is WW2. The headdresses (sorry not sure of technical term) seems slightly smaller than regulation size. There are 3 two are plain and one has an embroidered red cross on, they are non starched

The dress comes to about lower calf length. I would just love to know if anyone can shed any light on the matter particularly as I recently picked up a set of red cross medals with a citation for 10 years service in the VAD dated 1924 to an Evelyn Dixey and it would be great if they were contemporary

[Sue Light]

I don't know what it is, but what it isn't is a British Red Cross Society VAD/trained nurse dress of either WW1 or WW2.

Sue

[welshdoc]

no comment on the uniform but this just may be the lady in question, however there is no mention of her being a nurse, its the only obvious Gwen(doline) "Davies" I can see on a quick search. Of couse she may only have seerved in the uk so there would be no medal index card.

Description Medal card of Baesjon (Mrs Davies), Gwen C M

Corps Regiment No Rank

British Red Cross Society and Order of Saint John of Jerusalem

Date 1914-1920

Catalogue reference WO 372/23

Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies

Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War

Piece Women's Services, Distinguished Conduct Medals and Military Medals

Image contains 1 medal card of many for this collection

[seaJane]

Maybe some advice on where to start here http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/2.html ?

My gran was in the Red Cross and, when I was small and collected costume dolls, she dressed two in different dates of Red Cross uniform; the blue shade of the dress above makes me think of the later one which was post-WW2 - certainly not what Gran wore as VAD in the Lewisham Mobile Ambulance during the blitz.

[seaJane]

Oops I've just seen the link I posted in Sue's signature! Sorry for duplicating information.

I suppose it could be non-British Red Cross?

[ph0ebus]

Under the apron does it look like this?

Daniel

[frankiegreen]

Hi Everyone thanks for the comments so far. It really is a mystery, I have attached another couple of photos one of which shows some of the things that came with it and the lancer front fastening. Anyone know what the stamp 125 ambulance might refer to?

The collars and headdresses are the same style as my St Johns and are obviously nursing related its just that the dress also has the same name in it. Could be post WW2 of course but that doesn't match the records for the main nursing group either. The IWM and Medical Services Museum thought WW2 civilian.

The apron is from the main Red cross uniform supplier

[Sue Light]

It's quite hard to comment without having a really good look, and feel, of everything.

From what I can see, the apron looks OK, either for Great War or inter-war - it's the right style, shape etc. for a BRCS VAD.

I can't see the hat properly, but looks to be one that makes up into a 'Sister Dora' type of cap, and if so is not of the same period as the apron - the cap that goes with that style of apron would be the large 'handkerchief' type which tied/pinned at the nape of the neck.

The dress is all wrong for a VAD, or to go with the apron. I'd be interested in how long the apron is in relation to the dress - it looks a great deal longer. The side opening of the dress is a style that I've never seen worn by BRCS staff at all; it seems much too short for WW1 or inter-war, but of course depends on the height of the person wearing it. The skirt of a VAD dress was cut quite full, and that skirt appears to be of a much more modern, and sleeker cut - it should be gathered from the waist to fit in with the apron, and would normally have two tucked pleats above the hem.

The sleeves of the dresses WW1/inter-war were always long, never short (unless messed about with by the owner), and those are not only short, but short to a very high degree - again 'modern short'.

I think a lot of things need to be taken into consideration - is the naming contemporary with the period, or does it all look as though it was done around the same time? As they are almost certainly of different periods (even if the same owner) they would have been named at different times, with different markers etc.

Is there any possibility that these items could have come from different sources and then put together and named as a group, which they aren't?

They seem to be such a mixture they could have belonged to one owner over a long period of time, but they are an odd assortment.

(Just playing Devil's Advocate here ).

No idea about Ambulance 125. I'd ask BRCS/St. John whether their units would have been referred to in this way during the inter-war years. They weren't in WW1 (nor WW2, though I might be wrong about that)

They obviously belonged to a nurse/nurses somewhere, but the dress could have well been that of a nurse in a civil hospital, or abroad, whereas the apron is almost certainly that of a BRCS VAD.

What worries me a bit is that these were sold as WW1 Red Cross articles. Was the word 'British' included in the description, or implied? If so, then I think the 'costume expert' has certainly misled you about the dress (though not necessarily on purpose, just through ignorance of the period). How did she know this was Great War - is there any provenence with them? If you feel unhappy about the group, perhaps you should re-negotiate the price you paid.

Sue

[frankiegreen]

Hi Sue, the apron comes about 4 inches above the bottom of the dress, and the dress when its on is about 8 -10 inches from the ground (its a good fit on me). The dress is pretty shapeless but has sort of flat tucks all way round, the look when its on, the material and general feel is old but I wouldn't say WW1. Interestingly I did come across a photo of a red cross nurse in WW2 with exactly the same length and style sleeves and apron (not that I am saying its red cross). The collars etc are definitely old, as you say very difficult to say without you feeling it..,,the naming on the items together with what seems her number are I would say contemporary and not added after. I did email the auction house and they were going to speak to the consultant and I am waiting to hear back as my first question was, was there any provenance that made the consultant make her statement in the catalogue

Money wise I got the whole lot for £30.00 I am more interested in the history of it all..as it is quite fascinating as she was obviously some kind of nurse and the materials are definitely not 50s/60s...and definitely not the crimpolene I had to wear...lol

Many, many thanks for your help

[nhclark]

Could be a wild, wild guess...and 'Gwendoline Davies' sounds very British...but I wonder whether '125 Ambulance' stands for '125th Ambulance Company', which was one of many American ambulance units?

[kjharris]

At last, I can contribute something from down under!

Gwendoline Constance M Baesjou (note different spelling) was from Australia, a VAD from Albany, Western Australia, but was actually a trained nurse from the Melbourne Hospital. Her name appears on the Albany, WA Roll of Honour.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/26945706?searchTerm=gwen%20baesjou%20nurse&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-australian=y

She is mentioned in this article on Trove.

So maybe an Australian Red Cross uniform?

cheers

Kirsty

[kjharris]

And a little more

SILVER WEDDINGS. CAPEL-DAVIES-BAESJOU.-Mr and Mrs Capel-Davies are glad to announce the 25th Anniversary of their Wedding, which took place on April 29, 1919, at St Leonard's, Bedford, England. Rev Hugh Supholme officiating.

Hopefully same person.

cheers K

[frev]

Thanks Kirsty - I love it when I just wander in to a topic - and it takes me somewhere interesting!

I have now added Gwendoline Constance Melville BAESJOU & Gordon Capel DAVIES to my Married O/S database.

Frankieg - afraid I can't help identify the uniform, but if it does turn out to belong to the above lady - I've now gathered quite a bit of info on she & her family if you're interested.

Cheers, Frev

[nhclark]

Following up the Australian lead...I went into Google Images and entered the following three sets of search terms:

Australian VAD

Australian VAD nurse

Australian VAD nurse uniform

There are a number of interesting images that you might want to look at. (You may need to scroll down to find some of them.)

For example, see http://www.australiandressregister.org/garment/50/

[frankiegreen]

I had also found this link funnily enough and thought it was the closest I had seen to both the shape and material mine is made of. who knows may be an Aussie coming the other way

I met Andy Robertshaw at Kelmarsh and he said to send the photos to him at Battefield Partnerships which I have done, so who knows.

The auction house have got in touch, they say they based their description on the similarity in dress style to many of the WW1 dolls dressed as VAD that they get (they are a major auction house for toys) and also the seller who knew the family who insisted it had been worn by a member of the family in WW1

[NigelS]

Tonight's (23rd Sept '12) BBC Fake or fortune: Series 2 - 2. Turner: A Miscarriage of Justice? might shed a little more light on the uniform in question. The Turner paintings which were the subject of the programme had been bought by Misses Gwendoline & Margaret Davies (Welsh spinster Heiresses), & it was mentioned that they had worked (& possibly run) the Cantine du Dames Anglaise in France during the war. Some family photographs were shown including the two sisters in uniform.

The relevant section is at around 35 minutes in (this link should find it) on BBC iPlayer (NB available till 7:59PM Sun, 7 Oct 2012)

EDIT

The ODNB (there are entries for both sisters) gives this:

...The Davies sisters' lives remained somewhat circumscribed until the outbreak of the First World War. Having in 1914 assisted Belgian refugee poets and artists to settle in Wales, in 1916 they opened a canteen in Troyes for French troops...

There are also Wikipedia entries; that for margaret (Click) gives this:

During the First World War, the Davies sisters worked as volunteers for the

French

Red Cross, as they had already travelled extensively in France. They offered asylum in Wales during the war to the Belgian artists George Minne, Valerius de Saedeleer and Gustave van de Woestyne.

I know nothing about Red Cross uniforms, but could it be that the reason that the uniform in question isn't familiar is because its a French pattern one ? (I also don't know French, but according to Google's translate function 'ambulance' is common to French & English)

In WWII, according to the ODNB, the two sisters gave over their home, Gregynog, to the Red Cross for use as a convalescent home, so possibly the sisters took an active part in that as well

NigelS

[seaJane]

The sisters also founded the Gregynog Press, bless them. Active ladies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregynog_Hall

[Kathryn]

I realise that this thread is from a long time ago. However, I wondered if there was an outcome. I was interested to read Kirsty Harris' comments regarding Gwendoline Baesjou from Albany (where I live). I recently purchased a couple of photo albums and a scrap book from Wolverhampton because there was an entry from Gwendoline in it and I liked the Albany connection. It has turned out to be a bit of a disaster with a very unhelpful auction house and a very expensive freight company. The condition of the items was also dreadful - so fragile as to be falling to pieces and crumbling to dust. Should have stuck to eBay.