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Remembered Today:

Unusual WW1 German signature engraved silver tray 1914-1918 D.M.P. 24


peternoy

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Hi Friends,

This is my first post so hope I've got it right! I bought this yesterday at a car boot sale and wondered if anyone could tell me anything about it? It appears to be a large silver plated tray engraved with 13 signatures, the years 1914 and 1918 and the letters D.M.P. 24. By the look of the names I'd guess they'd be German and 1914-1918 suggests it is commemorating something from the 1st World War. Does anyone know what this could all be about? I've searched the web but couldn't find anything for D.M.P. 24. Although the signatures are clear I can't quite interpret any of them.

Tray.jpg

IMG_0288.jpg

The central signature seems most prominent:

IMG_0289.jpg

Anyway I'd be amazed and extremely grateful if anyone could tell me anything about this as I'd be fascinated to know. The person I bought it from was surprised that anyone would want it, but I'm hooked on it.

Thanks for your attention and hope I'm not wasting anyone's time with a sheet of scrap metal! I'll have to keep the hope alive that I've saved something interesting from the bin as I may never know the answer.

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Well, one signature on the right appears to be "D.Beck". Fascinating souvenir of the right time period. By the quality of the calligraphy and the "v." = "von" in the central signature, I will hazard a guess that they are officers who survived the War. Antony

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Central signature is "Rudolf von ???????" ( Or Rudoef??) Actually, Much of the last name is decyperable, but the front end is problematic. A problem since the script can be a muddle between Suetterlin, Kurrent, and Modern, sometimes mixed in the same word, and of course signatures are even the worst. Only one "von", so I do not think that it is a group of officers; probably a group of survivors, but "D. M. P. 24" does not ring a bell, and I know a lot about the German Army of the period.

Central signature is mostly Modern, but traces of Suetterlin. Probably the CO of the group.

There are native speakers who can glance at these and usually come up with a good opinion in a flash.

Bob Lembke

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Any hallmarks or makers marks on the back?

-Daniel

Hi all, thanks for your responses! I really appreciate it. No marks on the back, it is plain. The only info I have is what is engraved on the front as in the photos.

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Deutsche Marine-Patrouille?

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Where did you read about this existance sea jane? I have never come across such an organization

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was there a Deutsche Marine Polizei?

cheers Martin B

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Martin;

In several senses an abbreviated German unit designation would not be written like D. M. P. There would be a lot of abbreviation but usually not single letters, and usually not seperated with periods. Also no Deutsche Marine Politzei, for several reasons. If D. M. P. does not ring Egbert's bell, it will not be easily puzzled out. It could be a non-military organization that had some sort of common experience during the war.

One example of single letters would be: k.=M.=K. B. Nr. 2, which more usually be k.=M.=K. Batt. Nr. 2, for kurtze=Marine=Kanone Batterie Nr. 2, for a battery of 42 cm howitzers. Despite the name, they were not Marine Kanone = Naval Cannon; that was a cover name to confuse enemy intelligence. Most abbreviations either had a few letters per word, or omitted the letter at all, such as: II./Inf.=Regt. Nr. 24, for "2nd Battalion, Infantry Regiment Nr. 24. There was a system of alternating unit numbers, alternating from Roman to Arabic letters, from the squad level up to the army. Hence in the last example one could write II./Inf.=Regt. and the reader can safely assume that it was the 2nd Battalion, and not the 2nd Company, which would be 2. Kompagnie, not II. Kompagnie.

Bob

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Are you absolutely certain it's German? D.M.P stood for (and still does) Dublin Metropolitan Police, then part of the RIC. Dublin was divided into areas for policing and I believe there was an area 24 (there was certainly a 23). Police medals were issued to some DMP officers in recognition of their services during matters such as the rising. The signatures are so difficult to read that there is a danger of seeing what supports your theory (for example V might just be someone's middle initial). Possibly a group of policemen who saw the war through together?

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Are you absolutely certain it's German? D.M.P stood for (and still does) Dublin Metropolitan Police, then part of the RIC. Dublin was divided into areas for policing and I believe there was an area 24 (there was certainly a 23). Police medals were issued to some DMP officers in recognition of their services during matters such as the rising. The signatures are so difficult to read that there is a danger of seeing what supports your theory (for example V might just be someone's middle initial). Possibly a group of policemen who saw the war through together?

I know that the Anglo-Irish were some odd types, but did they write English in Suetterlin? I have translated German, Slovene, and Czech from Suetterlin handwriting into English, but never English Suetterlin. Additionally, the "v." of the central figure almost certainly is a "von"; it not only is lower-case, but lower than lower-case, like a "von" usually was, as false modesty usually dictated.

In 1915 the Prussian postal regulations were modified to require that addresses on Prussian military mail be written in Modern script, not Suetterlin or Kurrent, and also that an Absender Block be added to the area of the address, identifying the military address with specified information on the soldier. (The Bavarian military postal system did not.) What you observe in reading German mail of the period is that at the same time people started writing names as well as addresses in Modern script, even if in a sea of Suetterlin text in the body of the letter. Since the writers of these names were planning on them being readable, they are half signature, half written name in script.

But I may be wrong here. I have read much more German (or French) handwriting of the period than English, or certainly Irish or Anglo Irish. Did the English of the period write in Suetterlin?

It well may be non-military, members of some group, perhaps a sports club, remembering the trials of the war-time period.

Bob

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There appear to be umlauts over 2 of the signatures on the left hand side of the image. So, definitely not English, imho.

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Egbert - First I guessed, then I checked the German for patrol, then I Googled. I'm not saying it's correct! :)

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There appear to be umlauts over 2 of the signatures on the left hand side of the image. So, definitely not English, imho.

They might be Uemlauts, or that little "u" that Germans wrote over "non-Uemlaut" "u"s (I should know what that mark is called), sometimes they are hard to tell apart, but either seems German, not English. Can't remember either mark appearing over "u"s in English/Irish script of the period, but haven't read much lately. (Read a bunch of war diaries a couple of years ago.)

Bob

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Long shot -DMP = German Military Post? (As in Military Post Office)I was thinking a feeder service for the Feldpost???)

John

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It's definitely Germanic, and I can't see any names that would suggest KuK, so almost certainly German. The only name that is more or less completely clear is D Becker (or possibly Beckers). Bearing in mind the apparently commemorative nature of the tray, many of the people appear to have consciously written their name, rather than signed with a stylised signature, so it should be possible to eventually figure out some if not all of the names. Rudolf v. is puzzling as his name appears to end in 'kgm'. Could be 'kym', but the loop is closed, and might be '...erekgin', but there's no dot and he has put a dash over the 'u' of Rudolf, so he's evidently not someone who omits such things. If we could get the whole of that name, we might just find him or someone else of a similar name on the interweb.

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SG, could the y be like the Dutch y derived from ij?

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  • 2 months later...

I'm going to contradict Mick, if I may, and say it is KuK.

Most of the signatures appear to end with the abbreviation Oblt for Oberleutnant.

Some of the names (I think) I can read are:

Schade

?Dubert

D.Beck/Belk

H.Eigen

?Wetzel

Epler

Grüller

Gastner

D.Kirchstetter

H.Flürscheim

Assuming the last two letters of the central signature are also a rank abbreviation...

Generalmajor Rudolf von Uherek was Militär-Stations-Kommandant(?) at Laibach (now Ljubljana, Slovenia) in 1918 according to http://www.weltkriege.at/Generalitaet/05%20Generalmajor/genmaj3.htm

As Oberst, he had been commander of 5. Reitende Artilleriedivision in 1914.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_k.u.k._Kampfunterst%C3%BCtzungstruppen

No idea what DMP24 stands for, but an Oberst Uherek is listed as commander of 24th Artillery Brigade in 1917 at http://noturkeys.noob.it/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=936&start=0

so there may be a connection there.

Anyone have access to KuK Ranglisten? The ones on Ancestry stop at 1913.

Adrian

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DMP = Divisions-Munitions-Park

So these are the officers of the Ammunition Park of 24. Infanterie-Division??

Adrian

EDIT: Couple of extracts from the 1913 edition of Schematismus für das Kaiserliche und Königliche Heer und für die Kriegsmarine:

p.72

Militärverdienstkreuz

1904

Uherek Rudolf, Obstl. Art.

p.882

Artillerie

Feld- und Gebirgsartillerie

Rangliste der Oberstleutnants, Majore, Hauptleute, Oberleutnants, Leutnants, Fähnriche und Kadetten

Oberstleutnants

1. November 1910

5 rtAD. Uherek Rudolf MVK [etc.] Div.Kmdt.

p.1030

Reitende Artilleriedivision Nr.5

Obstl. u. DivKmdt. Uherek Rudolf MVK [etc.].

[etc.] = symbols for his other awards:

Militärdienstzeichen 3. Klasse für Offiziere

bronzene Jubiläumserinnerungsmedaille für die bewaffnete Macht

Militär-Jubiläumskreuz

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I'm going to contradict Mick, if I may, and say it is KuK.

I'm always pleased when you do, Adrian, as you are almost invariably right!

Rudolf v. Uherek Gm it is. Clear as a bell when you know what you're looking for ... :D

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Adrian was certainly on the right track; D.M.P. 24 or Divisionsmunitionspark-Kommando Nr. 24 was the divisional munitions park of 24. Infanterietruppen-Division. The personnel of the D.M.P. were provided on mobilisation by a cadre of the subordinate field artillery regiment (by 1918 the field artillery brigade has two regiments of field artillery)which formed both infantry and artillery munitions columns (4 of each) By 1918 the regiments of 24. Feldartilleriebrigade of 24. Infanterietruppen-Division were the 24. & 124. Feldartillerieregimenter. The signatures of Officers of both these regiments can be seen on the plate:

Oberleutnant in der Reserve Friedrich Schade: 24. F.A.R.

Oberleutnant in der Reserve Alois Wetzel: 24. F.A.R.

Oberleutnant in der Reserve Josef Beitz: 124. F.A.R.

Oberleutnant in der Reserve Wratislav Tahal: 124. F.A.R.

Oberst/Generalmajor Rudolf (v.) Uherek commanded 24. Feldartilleriebrigade for much of the war: August 1915 to May 1918.

Regards

Glenn

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  • 4 months later...

Wow! I'd just like to say a really big thanks to all of you. I didn't ever think I'd get an answer, and I'm amazed at the work you've all put in!

I'll be printing out the comments and keeping them with the tray as a nice talking point. It certainly gives me some scope to dig further. Wonder if there are any photos of them still in existence.

Thanks again!

Pete

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  • 7 years later...

Hallo to everybody!

I checked all German Units from the Brigade up to all Divisionen. Because a Generalmajor plus eight Oberstleutnant must be a Division at least. I checked About 400 Units without any name from this plate.  Then I started to check the k u k Österreich-Ungarn units and their commanders. BINGO !

 

Rudolf von Uherek became Generalmajor 25.08.1917 . At the end of WW1 he was Commander of the defense area of Lubiana  between Triest and Austria III Corps ?????

Bottom left : Grüter Obtl

Bottom mid: D. Lauchstetter Obtl

Bottom Right : Gerstner Obtl

Middle: Lhader Obtl

Middel Rrght: W.Tahal Obtl

Middel high Wetiel Oblt

Middel Right : W. Meck  or  Beck Obtl

Top left H. Thüschemann

Top Right not readable Obtl

 

and  big in the middel Rudolf v. Uherek Generalmajor

 

Best regards Martin

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