munchkin Posted 9 July , 2004 Share Posted 9 July , 2004 Hi All, I have just read the long long trail section on territorial forces. I am researching the 1/7th Bn T.F Duke of Wellingtons. I understand from what i have read, that the unit was composed of men who had territorial training, or who had seen service before. Was this true throuhout war?. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 9 July , 2004 Share Posted 9 July , 2004 No, is the simple answer. The Army grew so dramatically throughout the war that inexperienced recruits could find themselves in any unit of the Army, including the territorials who were much as they are today, part time soldiers with ordinary jobs. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 10 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Thanks Ken, I wondered if this was the case, as there cant have been Terratorials in that amount of numbers to sustain the war effort for 4 years. Thanks Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Thanks Ken, I wondered if this was the case, as there cant have been Territorials in that amount of numbers to sustain the war effort for 4 years. Thanks Glynn. After the initial first flush of Territorial Members already serving as such,in the TF Battalions; the Ranks of the TF Battalions would have been swollen by new recruits,from August 1914 onwards,who would have been embodied to serve in whichever Battalion/Regiment needed them,so in effect for the Duration they would have been as other Soldiers Territorials by name only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 10 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Harry, Would only recruits from certain areas have joined - in other words, as with West riding Duke of wellingtons Bn. Would recruits have only come from the west riding area. Or would anyone have been put in the Bn to swell the numbers of fighting men. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Harry, Would only recruits from certain areas have joined - in other words, as with West riding Duke of wellingtons Bn. Would recruits have only come from the west riding area. Or would anyone have been put in the Bn to swell the numbers of fighting men. Glynn. Initially yes the Recruits would have been local,as the War progressed & Casualty places had to be filled,Recruit & Conscripts would have come from anywhere being posted to the Battalion as required{ Men serving in the 1/1 Cambridgeshire Regiment after around 1916 came from London,Devon,Scotland even the C.I.; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Re: West Riding DWR - you should read 'Cravens Part in the Great War' for refs. to btns. from that area. I can do look ups. At embodiment TF units in this area expanded rapidly and many 2nd line units were formed. Further influxes of recruits later in the war (esp. with reference to re-numbering of artillery btys. March 1916) from the btns. initial catchment area can often get 'lost' in the machine (so to speak): the 4th West Riding RFA detached its two btys. of the previously named Otley and Ilkey Howitzers to the 246th and 245th RFA (Bradford and Leeds raised units - decidedly not from Wharfedale) before the Somme and continued on in a guise which barely reflected its initial formation. My relative joined KOYLI's, but was from Yarm Co. Durham, and ended up in Notts&Derby. There'll be inumerable examples of this. Needs must as the devil drives I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 10 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Thanks Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 10 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Simon, What do you know about the West Riding Soldiers Numbers. I am trying to find out when Pte Joseph Tew number 33108 actually joined. I unfortunatley cannot get to the pro to check (if his parer work survives. I just wondered if you knew how the numbers went in relation to joining up time??. Glynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Simon, What do you know about the West Riding Soldiers Numbers. I am trying to find out when Pte Joseph Tew number 33108 actually joined. I unfortunatley cannot get to the pro to check (if his paper work survives. I just wondered if you knew how the numbers went in relation to joining up time??. Glynn This appears to be A "Derby" Number ie a Post Conscription Number{an early TF number would be 3 or 4 Figures below 5000 or a six figure TF number after 1916} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 After the initial first flush of Territorial Members already serving as such,in the TF Battalions; the Ranks of the TF Battalions would have been swollen by new recruits,from August 1914 onwards,who would have been embodied to serve in whichever Battalion/Regiment needed them,so in effect for the Duration they would have been as other Soldiers Territorials by name only This is not quite right: the whole point of being a Territorial was that there was no legal requirement to serve overseas. When war broke out there was a big movement to join TF precisely for that reason: men were willing to defend their homes but they had jobs and wives they did not want to leave. I have statistics for this. Only in units where 80% of men could be pursuaded to volunteer for overseas was the unit sent [this % was dropped to 60 later]. There was a lot of arm-twisting. The blurring of the distinctions Territorial v Regular came much later and did not end until the Military Service Acts of 1916. That is not to say that TF men are not to be found in the ranks of Line or Service battalions, but, to begin with, this was neither intended nor welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 ....The whole point of being a Territorial was that there was no legal requirement to serve overseas. When war broke out there was a big movement to join TF precisely for that reason: men were willing to defend their homes but they had jobs and wives they did not want to leave. I have statistics for this. Only in units where 80% of men could be pursuaded to volunteer for overseas was the unit sent [this % was dropped to 60 later]. There was a lot of arm-twisting. The blurring of the distinctions Territorial v Regular came much later and did not end until the Military Service Acts of 1916. That is not to say that TF men are not to be found in the ranks of Line or Service battalions, but, to begin with, this was neither intended nor welcome. I wish I'd said that! Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Not at all: I get a lot of good stuff from you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRICOURT Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Glynn I would say that according to his number your relative was a reinforce ment into the 1/7th, probably 1917 or 1918. The 1/7th were based , and raised, mainly in the Milnesbrige area originally and numbered up to about 5000. From September 1916 the surviving originals were renumbered within the series 305001 - 330000. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 10 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Charlie, My relative was from Sheffield in Yorkshire. As you point out he probably joined around September 1916 onwards looking at the numbers. I dont suppose anyone knows about the numbers in the West Yorkshire Regt (Prince of Wales Own), are they similar. The number i am talking about is 56530. Thanks to you all, you have all been a great help. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 11 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2004 Charlie, Also from your last post you tell me that, after Sept 1916 the numbers changed to 305001 - 330000. These are six digit numbers. What i dont understand is that Josephs number was 33108, which is a 5 digit number?, why would this be. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 11 July , 2004 Share Posted 11 July , 2004 Some general refs. for you re: DWR Brereton, J.. and Savory, A.C.S. 'History of the DWR (West Riding) 1702-1992'. DWR, Halifax. Bales, P.G. Capt. 1920 'The History of the 1/4th DWR 1914-1919' Mortimer, Halifax. Bruce, C.D. 1927 'History of the DWR (1st and 2nd btns.)' Medici Society, London. Clayton, J.T. 1919 'Cravens Part in the Great War'. Morrison, Skipton. - deals primarily with 1/6th and 2/6th btns. but passim refs. to 7th btns. throughout. - covers casualties from Skipton, Keighley, Settle, Bingley, Haworth, Guiseley, Barnoldswick whether DWR or otherwise. Also refs. to Barnoldswick casualties from hospital ship Rohilla. Wide ranging. Magnus, L. 'West Riding Territorials in the Great War' Regimental Archive Regimental Secretary Duke of Wellingtons Regiment RHQ Wellersley Park Halifax HX2 0BA - very helpful indeed. The above books can cost a small fortune so go for look-ups, libraries and p.copies of relevant sections where available. Reference everything of course. Local newspapers can help, try tracking down past issues in local or regional libraries, some may be on microfilm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 11 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2004 Thanks Simon, I dont suppose you know where there are any good bookshops dealing in these old books do you. It would be useful to have my own copies for reference. Thanks again for all your help. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 11 July , 2004 Share Posted 11 July , 2004 Try Many antiquarian/rare/2nd hand bookdealers on online now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 11 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2004 Cheers Simon, Dont hesitate to ask if i can help you in anyway. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRICOURT Posted 11 July , 2004 Share Posted 11 July , 2004 Glynn The 6 digit numbers replaced the original 4 digit territorial ones. As your relative was not an original he appears to have a new army number. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 11 July , 2004 Share Posted 11 July , 2004 Charlie, Also from your last post you tell me that, after Sept 1916 the numbers changed to 305001 - 330000. These are six digit numbers. What i dont understand is that Josephs number was 33108, which is a 5 digit number?, why would this be. Glynn. See above it is a later Derby Man's Conscription Number {5 Digits}rather than a post 1916;~ 6 Figure TF Number. It implies he was conscripted after 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 12 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2004 Thanks Charlie Thanks Harry The replies to my post have been very helpful. Thanks to everyone for their help Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Lund Posted 6 August , 2004 Share Posted 6 August , 2004 Bales, P.G. Capt. 1920 'The History of the 1/4th DWR 1914-1919' Mortimer, Halifax. This book has now been reprinted by the Naval and Military Press, at £22.50, in the back there is an itinerary of the battalion which is a useful guide to the location of all four battalions of the 147th Infantry Brigade, which includes the 1st 7th Duke of Wellingtons. Obviously they would usually be reasonably close together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 7 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2004 Thanks Tony, no doubt i will be spending £22.50 this weekend. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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