Seadog Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Goodmorning So if you make an overlay with the aerial photo and the trenchmap. The second charge should be right under the farmhouse. The charge at Petite Douve is very close to the buildings of the farmhouse. But this one is right under it. Do those people know that? Regards Digimax I reckon that you are correct, a bit scary though sitting on top of 20,000lbs (9 Tons) of explosives notwithstanding that they have been there for 94 years!. I mean you must think about that now and again if you live there. Norman PS Can anyone identify the double crater pictured in this video at about 7:53 taken in the present day. YouTube BBC Prog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 And to save going over old ground for any interested newcomers, just put "messines mines" into the "search" box, top right, and you will have hours of informative reading on your p.c. regards Tom Tom, True of course : an avalanche of postings. But the problem is that some of it is dated, and the information provided often is contradictory. (The number of exploded and unexploded mines, etc.) So the answer to my question may be in one of the postings I had a quick look at, sorry if I overlooked, but here I go, just wanting to be sure : Referring to the plan in my posting # 13 : - the bottom mine was blown 7 June 1917 - the one just a little northeast of it, under the present farm, was not exploded. Was the reason that sand and mud had rushed in, after the charge had been laid ? - the one on top, north of the Wijtschatestraat : am I correct when I think that the gallery collapsed, could not be found back, and was abandoned, before a charge was laid ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 PS Can anyone identify the double crater pictured in this video at about 7:53 taken in the present day. Norman, I think I remember that shortly after the programme was broadcast almost a year ago, someone in the Topic where it was discussed (and criticized) pointed out that these "craters" (in the Palingbeek (Bluff) Golf course) were no craters at all ! These ponds had been there even before the war (and can be seen on prewar maps and trench maps), result of damming the small river running through the White Chateau park. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Tom, True of course : an avalanche of postings. But the problem is that some of it is dated, and the information provided often is contradictory. (The number of exploded and unexploded mines, etc.) So the answer to my question may be in one of the postings I had a quick look at, sorry if I overlooked, but here I go, just wanting to be sure : Referring to the plan in my posting # 13 : - the bottom mine was blown 7 June 1917 - the one just a little northeast of it, under the present farm, was not exploded. Was the reason that sand and mud had rushed in, after the charge had been laid ? - the one on top, north of the Wijtschatestraat : am I correct when I think that the gallery collapsed, could not be found back, and was abandoned, before a charge was laid ? Aurel Good morning Aurel, the suggestion of using the "search" box, was meant for newcomers who may be interested in this topic and not realise there is a wealth of information already on the forum that may give them information they seek. I realise we are forever finding out new things about these mines etc, with people like Simon and Iain spending hours, months, and even years on doing original research. I'm just re-reading Simon Jones's "Underground Warfare 1914-1916" and I'll see if I can come up with an answer to your query Aurel.. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Thanks for the information Aurel, keep it coming. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Ok from the excellent Simon Jones book "Underground Warfare 1914-1918" I have taken this passage... The Maedelstede Farm mines....one gallery was halted after 1,600ft (around 500 metres), when it was clear it would not reach its objective and abandoned. Delays in mining had been due to Germans blowing camouflets in the area and the miners had to be withdrawn... The other gallery was completed 1 day before the attack, and had a charge of 94,000lbs Hoping that that answers your questions Aurel... many thanks to Simon Jones for his work on mining in WW1, and the use of this information from his publication regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digimax Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Tom Thanks a lot and I already searched the internet and of course this interesting forum as well and read about it for several hours. There is no doubt the Birdcage mines (3 left of 4) and le Petit Douve are still there. But there were some doubts about this one. Do you also know where this information comes from, I mean the little 34 footnote ? Regards Digimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 20 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Hi, sorry for my first post, 'Hugo' was fired south of Mesen anyway very interesting replies regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Tom Thanks a lot and I already searched the internet and of course this interesting forum as well and read about it for several hours. There is no doubt the Birdcage mines (3 left of 4) and le Petit Douve are still there. But there were some doubts about this one. Do you also know where this information comes from, I mean the little 34 footmark ? Regards Digimax re: 34, The information is taken from the book "Tunnellers" by Captain W Grant Grieve and Bernard Newman ( a book which I also have, recommended to me by forum pal Iain...) There is also intensive discussion on this type of topic on Pauls forum..... http://ypres1917.3.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=286 regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digimax Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Tom Thanks. I already read this topic a while ago. And some days ago I ordered the reprint of Tunnellers from Naval and Military Press, but it isn't delivered yet So I think we are coming closer to the truth. I'm just curious about it is mentioned in the war diary of 250th TC? It is a pitty it isn't on line like the canadian and australian ones. Regards Digimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Tom, Thanks for taking the trouble to post that extract from Simon Jones's book. And comparing to the plan I posted in my # 13, I think I understand now. - The 87,000 lbs charge must be the one on the plan the southernmost of the three (the one that was blown, and shows the crater), saying 76,000 lbs on the plan - "A branch was run off to a second objective but collapsed with an inrush of sand and water (...) A second drive broken out to the right also had to be abandoned" must be the one north, north of the road. (No charge was laid there.) - "But a third one found good clay. (...) Several small chambers were constructed (...) and a charge of 20,000 lbs laid" must be the one that is still there, under the present farm, some 200 meters northeast of the crater, and near the right side of the plan. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Very interesting posts on one of my favourite WW1 subjects. Whilst we can see most of mine craters that still exist it is sobering to think that the deep shafts and tunnels must still be there under the fields of Flanders in fact the whole front from Hill 60 to Plugstreet must bear these reminders of the underground war and should not be that difficult to find considering the amaount of maps and data produced at the time and still available, that is of course whether anybody would ever want to. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digimax Posted 24 August , 2011 Share Posted 24 August , 2011 Hello Are there other written traces of this charge? It appears that the charge of 20,000 Lbs is devided in several small chambers. Indeed very interesting and facinating. In the book Messines 1917: The Zenith of Siege Warfare by Alexander Turner,Peter Dennis it is the same story. Regards Digimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 August , 2011 Share Posted 24 August , 2011 So, the location of all that lovely pile of explosives cannot be found... Hard to believe that there is no local version of the Trotter brothers in the vicinity of Peckham Farm looking for a 'we'll make a killing out of this' find? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 4 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2018 Hello everyone, does anybody finally have more info about the camouflets fired on 7/2/1917? regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now