Cnock Posted 14 June , 2011 Share Posted 14 June , 2011 Hello, does anyone has more info concerning a German mine shaft at Wijtschate, named 'Hugo' and fired on 7/2/1917? regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 15 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2011 Hi, another mine shaft fired was 'Hindenburg' regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 15 June , 2011 Share Posted 15 June , 2011 Hi Cnock, I am away from my Tunnelling Company war diaries at the moment but with me I have the Second Army tunnelling weekly mine reports. Three German blows are reported across the Wijtschaete front on the 7th Feb 17: Bois Carre Subway- Progress delayed, camouflet felt 8am, 7/2/17. Hollandscheschuur - Gallery damaged by mysterious camouflet 8am, 7/2/17. Petit Bois - Camouflet felt 8am, 7/2/17. I am sure some more info will be in the 250th Tunnelling Company diaries which I will be able to get onto over the weekend. Regards Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 16 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 16 June , 2011 Hallo Ian, thanks for the info, already thougt one was fired at Petit Bois here pick of Pionier Mineur Kompagnie 314 ready to fire the Hugo mineshaft on 7/2/1917 regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 16 June , 2011 Share Posted 16 June , 2011 Thanks Cnock, Is the pic from the German book "Unsere mineuren in Flanderen"? Or something along those lines. Back home I have a scanned copy and am sure I have seen the photo in that book? Best regards Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 17 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2011 Hallo Iain, it is a original wartime foto, not from the book 'Unsere Mineuren in Flandern', best regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 18 June , 2011 Share Posted 18 June , 2011 Hi Cnock, The War Diary for 250 Tunnelling Company for the 7/2/17 states that just to the left of their front in the Hollandscheschuur Farm area a mine exploded at 0810 hrs destroying a section of deep gallery,later repaired, and damaging one pair of firing leads to the mine charges which were in place. There is no mention of casualties or damage to any other workings across 250 T Coys front. Regards Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 19 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 19 June , 2011 Hi Iain, thanks again for the info regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digimax Posted 18 August , 2011 Share Posted 18 August , 2011 Hi Iain Can you solve the mystery of the second Peckham mine? Is the 20,000 lbs ammonal there or not? I read that the gallery collapsed and there was an inflow of sand and slime after the two charges were putted in place. They had to dug a gallery of 300 feet and they only reached the biggest charge to refuse the chamber. Some others say the second charge was only planned. Maybe the answer is in the war diary of the 250th tunnelling company or in Second Army tunnelling weekly mine reports. Kind regards Digimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Morning Digimax, As far as I know the second Peckham mine charge that you mention still lies under the ground. I have found no reference in T Coy diaries, GHQ/2nd Army Weekly mine reports, or any other post action reports that the mine charge was salvaged or recovered at a later date. I personally consider this to be one of the unexploded mines of Messines. Best regards Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Morning Digimax, As far as I know the second Peckham mine charge that you mention still lies under the ground. I have found no reference in T Coy diaries, GHQ/2nd Army Weekly mine reports, or any other post action reports that the mine charge was salvaged or recovered at a later date. I personally consider this to be one of the unexploded mines of Messines. Best regards Iain Yep, all indications are that it is still very much there - Phillip Robinson and I have done a quite a bit of research on this for the book in the series on the Underground War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digimax Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Gents Thanks a lot for the fast replies Iain and Nigal. So there is a proof in official documents that the second charge is placed in Peckham and that it is lost due to a collapsed gallery? Kind Regards Digimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Taken from Peter Barton, Beneath Flanders Fields, 2004, p. 177 (and hoping that the text in the white boxes (which I applied, based on the text on that page) is still readable after resizing.) Anyway : Lower one = the big one (76,000 lbs) : blown 7 June 1917 The one on the right = smaller (20,000 lbs) : charge still there The one on top = planned as the smallest (15,000 lbs), but charge never laid there, as the gallery became unfindable (sand and mud rushing in). Actually there is a midday programme on the unexploded mines on our local radio here. (Radio 2) In it heard Franky Bostyn (of the Passchendale Museum in Zonnebeke, who is very knowledgeable regarding mines) say that at Peckham there is no exploded mine (as the charge was not laid). Part of the mystery in the radio programme is : how many unexploded mines are there now ? I think : 4 - 3 at the Birdcage (Le Pelerin, east of Ploegsteert Wood) (the 4th exploded in a thunderstorm in July 1955) (By the way, Iain, you remember when you and I were standing on one of these 3, a sunny afternoon end of May 2004, and that farmer joined us, with mixed feelings, not knowing whether he should be proud or scared stiff ? :-) ) - 1 at (near) Petit Douve Farm (a little southwest of Mesen (Messines) centre, west side road Mesen - Ploegsteert. (I think there is a plan showing that the mine is right under the yard, but I think the present postwar farm was not rebuilt on exactly the same spot. - 1 some 200 - 300 meters north east of the present Peckham crater. But again : there seems to be some doubt about this last one. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 This may be of interest: Flickr - Mine Warfare Flanders And this: Part 3 of WW1 from above. YouTube Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Thanks, Norman, for ... making this even more of a mystery to me ! On the satellite photo I see 2 Peckham craters, one south of the main road (the big one), and one north of it. And this indeed corresponds with what I remember being there. There are indeed 2 craters. Yet, according to Beneath Flanders Fields, that one was not detonated (gallery not found) ? (Or am I misinterpreting something ?) The caption with the plan that I posted (# 13) says : "Plan of the three proposed Peckham mines. Two were planted, the big one was blown 7 June, the second (20,000-pound) charge remains, whilst the gallery for a third (top) was unfinished." Don't these last words mean that the one on top was not detaonated ? (Yet : a crater now.) I am also puzzled by the caption that goes with the Flickr pics : "Of the 3 Peckham mines 2 mines were charged but not detonated." So only one was detonated ? And yet : 2 craters ? Anyway, the charge that is still there, is the one on the right, there is no doubt about that. But when I, based on the caption in Beneath Flanders Fields, suggested that the top one was not detonated (by my adding "gallery unfinished"), I was wrong. Obviously, as there is a crater. Is that correct ? Can someone help me out please ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Hi Aurel, here is the Google Earth image of the Peckham Farm Mine. I see only one crater where do you see the other one?. Regards Norman Added: Just a thought, are you perhaps thinking about the existing crater at Maedelstede Farm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 I've posted this map a couple of times before on this, and Pauls forum, from the Durand group's site..... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Nice one Tom, the interesting thing is that you can still find most of these now even after 94 years. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Norman, Was I confusing with the Maedelstede Farm Crater ? I am even too confused to know the answer, but maybe (most probably) I was. Look at this satellite pic. The crater down, near the bottom edge, is Spanbroekmolen crater, no doubt about that. Then there is the Peckham crater, southeast of the T-junction Scheerstraat and Wijtschatestraat. No doubt about that either. But what about the crater in the top right corner. Is this the Maedelstede Farm Crater ? I had thought that this is the mine in my plan taken from P. Barton etc. of which is said : Gallery unfinished. But obviously I am wrong ? Is that correct ? Apologies (with an embarrassed intonation ) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digimax Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Hello again I have found some different and confusing maps on the internet. The first does not mention the missing mine in Peckham. The second does and on the third has it crossed out and you can see the new gallery. Can anyone give an explanation or a proof black on white that he was laid? Kind regards Digimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digimax Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 hello the second map of the above post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Hi Aurel, I do believe the top one to be Maedelstede Farm and here is my image with the trench map included. The fact is that both sets of mines were very close together here and if they had all "gone up" on the day the devasation would have been appalling. Best Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 I believe Norman's photo and map also reveals that one of the German small craters is still there also. 1O o'clock position, NW of the T junction between the road and the farm. To my eyes it looks like one of the lower craters straddling the British front line. Possibly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digimax Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Goodmorning So if you make an overlay with the aerial photo and the trenchmap. The second charge should be right under the farmhouse. The charge at Petite Douve is very close to the buildings of the farmhouse. But this one is right under it. Do those people know that? Regards Digimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Here's an article in the Telegraph.......... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/1451468/Farmer-who-is-sitting-on-a-bomb.html And to save going over old ground for any interested newcomers, just put "messines mines" into the "search" box, top right, and you will have hours of informative reading on your p.c. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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