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ypres

Rifle farm

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ypres

Hi all. Please can someone help me with finding location. Have found an aeriel view (mcmasters) map ref 28.O.23.24. marked rifle farm,pillegrems farm, but checking it against trench map, no rifle Fm.Thankyou for reading my post. JIM

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Roger H

Jim

I have circled Rifle Farm (not named) on this map, which also shows Pillegrem Farm

Roger

post-42671-0-71201600-1307875325.jpg

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johnreed

According to my Gazetteer of the Western Front there are three Rifle Farms they are:

1 Rifle Farm Map Sheet 28SW2 Map Sheet Name Wytschaete Position 50 deg 47.175 minutes N 2 deg 55.939 minutes E Map Square O23

2 Rifle Farm Map Sheet 51BNW4 Map Sheet Name Fampoux Position 50 deg 16.646 minutes N 2 deg 54.025 minutes E Map Square I31

3 Rifle Farm Map Sheet 28NW4 Map Sheet Name Zillebeke Position 50 deg 51.002 minutes N 2 deg 55.337 minutes E Map Square I10

John

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connaughtranger

Rifle Farm marked with trenches (German in blue) corrected to 17/7/18

post-24996-0-64196400-1307964188.jpg

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Roger H

Connaughtranger

As a matter of interest, what is the source of your map? Linesman??

Roger

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connaughtranger

Connaughtranger

As a matter of interest, what is the source of your map? Linesman??

Roger

Hi

This map, like all others I post on this Forum unless otherwise stated, comes from my own collection of originals. I don't have Linesman but I have a copy of the NMP Trench Map Atlas Disk which I bought to cover the Western Front. I've been collecting maps for some years and don't look for bog standard 1 : 10000/1 : 20000 maps in pristine condition. They were shoved in boxes in Southampton or somewhere and never saw the light of day. Neither do I want maps with stamps of the Geographical Section General Staff Map Room or those that have Index Grids on the front, for the same reason. My collection contains, in the main, maps that have been hand drawn, spirit duplicated, have overprints of Secret material and have ms additions and ownership signatures that show they have been used. My collection contains 1 : 10000/ 1 : 20000/ 1 : 5000/ 1 : 2500/ 1 : 1000 maps (and in the case of Gallipoli 6 ins to 1 mile), as well as intelligence maps showing state of wire, height of grass etc in No-Man's Land; German Unit strengths according to Prisoner statements; barrage maps & Army Corps weekly update maps.

One thing that has always astonished me is just how much individual units and officers had to rely on their own initiative and skills to provide themselves with accurate and updated maps

The map above is a folding linen map entitled Wytschaete 28 SW2 marked SECRET with trenches corrected to 17/7/18

Regards

Martin

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Roger H

Martin

Wow! I love maps and I am extremely jealous :angry2:

Roger

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connaughtranger

Martin

Wow! I love maps and I am extremely jealous :angry2:

Roger

It's taken 21 years and lots of money :o

Please excuse the error. In the original post, above, I put the blue trenches as British; of course, by July 1918 they were German. I've corrected it :innocent:

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ypres

Roger H, John Reed, Connaughtranger. Thanking you all for taking the time to help me out . kind Regards. JIM.:thumbsup:

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Crouchie

Searching the forum and found this. I had been searching for Rifle Farm, in the Wytshaete sector, as my Great Uncle was killed there with 4th Middlesex on 31.7.1917. I located the place using Linesman, and found an aerial photo taken 9 days after the failed attempts to push the line forward. I have a photo of the location from Pastor Blankcestraat towards Houthem direction. I cannot figure out how to attach either of them here, but would happily email them.

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Crouchie

11182357_1195299557151816_86411615670521

Rifle Farm stood just behind the trees to the left on the slight rise. C Company 4th Middx advanced from a shell hole line and took Rifle Farm,with their left flank on the northern hedge line. After a number of counter attacks, incessant sniping from May Farm, and machine gun fire from three sides, the remnants joined D and A companies. The position was believed untenable and they withdrew to their shell hole start line. 3 Officers and 15 men were killed in action. 3 officers were wounded and missing. Captain Belfield was subsequently posted as killed in action. 97 were wounded. 69 missing, believed wounded, and 23 were missing believed killed. 70 of them are recorded on the Menin Gate.

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Jack newrick
On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2015 at 09:56, Crouchie said:

11182357_1195299557151816_86411615670521

Rifle Farm stood just behind the trees to the left on the slight rise. C Company 4th Middx advanced from a shell hole line and took Rifle Farm,with their left flank on the northern hedge line. After a number of counter attacks, incessant sniping from May Farm, and machine gun fire from three sides, the remnants joined D and A companies. The position was believed untenable and they withdrew to their shell hole start line. 3 Officers and 15 men were killed in action. 3 officers were wounded and missing. Captain Belfield was subsequently posted as killed in action. 97 were wounded. 69 missing, believed wounded, and 23 were missing believed killed. 70 of them are recorded on the Menin Gate.

Crouchie and anyone who can provide information,

You mentioned MAY FARM briefly in the last post and I was wondering if anyone could pinpoint the exact location of it. I have looked at several maps of that area and Rifle farm is labelled along with July and June farms but no May farm. Could someone please help find the location of May farm? I am interested because a platoon from A company, 8th Battalion, Lincolnshire Regiment attacked May farm on the 31st July 1917 which was unsuccessful, and I am trying to research this. 

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keithfazzani

May Farm in the centre

 

image.png.0ddb6b1467dd61bbae686e9de2c32c93.png

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Jack newrick
5 hours ago, keithfazzani said:

May Farm in the centre

 

image.png.0ddb6b1467dd61bbae686e9de2c32c93.png

 

keithfazzani,

Thank you so much for giving me this map-it turns out all along I was looking at the wrong sheet! In my mind I envisaged May farm being much closer to Rifle farm. Mystery Solved! 

Thanks again for the speedy reply,

Jack Newrick

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Alan24
On 26/11/2018 at 20:54, Jack newrick said:

 

keithfazzani,

Thank you so much for giving me this map-it turns out all along I was looking at the wrong sheet! In my mind I envisaged May farm being much closer to Rifle farm. Mystery Solved! 

Thanks again for the speedy reply,

Jack Newrick

 

Is the MAY FARM you're looking for different to Keith's one?

 

I've just purchased a medal of a man from 10/LNL who was part of D Coy who formed a raiding party on RIFLE FARM on 23 July 1917. Looking at the war diary MAY FARM is definitely forward of RIFLE FARM. The men lined up at 28.O.23.a.4.5 and reached MAY FARM  before pushing on to RIFLE FARM, only to discover MAY to be empty but signs that it had been used the night before as a forward O.P. 

I had thought MAY FARM to be what is shown as JUNE FARM above in post 4.

 

It must be somewhere close to 28.O.23.a or c surely?

 

The location in P.1.d looks just too far away.

 

The raiding party started out at 7am and were recalled at 7.27am,  the allotted time being up, wounded were all collected by 7.45am. This should give some clues as to the distances involved. 

 

Any ideas?

 

Regards

 

Alan. 

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Alan24

I've marked up the map in post #4, provided by our late Forum Pal Martin with details given in the war diary by 10th Loyal North Lancs' raid on Rifle Farm on 23 July 1917.

The map is almost exactly one year on from that raid and I wonder if May Farm is what is shown as March Farm on this map?

 

Map Key:

RED LINE: D Coy. line up in shell holes on the line 23.O.a.4.5 and 23.O.c.4.5.8

BLUE POLYGON: Rifle Farm Enclosure

BLUE DOTS: German Machine Gun Positions; 23.O.b.3.4, 23.O.d.0.7 and Beek Farm.

 

Notes in the diary for 23 July 1917;

 

"The object of this patrol was to enter Rifle Farm, clean up situation and take prisoners."

"...they advanced on their objective at 7am (zero hour)"

"On arrival at MAY FARM it was found to be empty but owing to fresh cigarette ends and matches it was obviously being used by night."

"On reaching the enclosure the raiders were met with very heavy machine gun and rifle fire."

"At 7.30am reinforcements of about 40 men came from the direction of Beek Farm over dead ground to contour 40 where they opened heavy rifle fire."

"The allotted time being up the signal to return was given at 7.27 by whistle."

 

Alan.

 

23 July 1917.JPG

Edited by Alan24

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Crouchie
Posted (edited)

March Farm being incorrectly recorded on the map is a possibility. It could be May Farm. 4th Middx relieved the 10th LNL in the front line on 25/7, but in turn were relieved by 13th RB on 26/7. They were back in the front line on 29/7. 8th Lincolns were on the right flank, touching at June & July farms during the 31/7 attack. A Co 4th Middx got as far as Bab Farm, whose site stands near the two current buildings on Neerwaastenstraat. there they captured 2 medical orderlies and a few OR. C Co 4th Middx formed up to the east of May Farm, taking one German prisoner, and passing through it to Rifle Farm. There is a current farm building on this location, and crossing Pastoor Blanckstraat to the site of Rifle Farm is only a short distance.This small area of front was 4th Middx on 31/7, but there is no mention in the Bn War Diary of a March Farm, which would have stood right in front of their jumping off lines. So either the RE map makers, or the entire 37th Division got the name wrong. 

Edited by Crouchie

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