137964 Pvt Thomas Hayes RFA

[RussT]

I have a few of questions here that someone may be able to shed some light on - one specific, and a couple general ones.

I am researching my Great Uncle, and I know from SDGW that he was formerly in the RFA with No 137964. His MIC does not record those details, so I know he didn't serve in action abroad with the RFA.

Specific question: Does his service number in the RFA reveal anything about a possible enlistment date?

I know he was at sometime transferred to the 15th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers, and SDGW gives his death as DOW on 12/07/1917.

General question 1: Was a transfer from the RFA to an Infantry Bn quite common? I can imagine that, say, after the battle of the Somme the infantry regiments, in particular, would need to be brought back up to strength.

General question 2: Would it be likely for a solder already, say, in the RFA to have been transfered to an Infantry Bn in the UK or after he arrived in France, say, at Etaples or some other staging post?

Many thanks for your responses in advance,

Regards

Russ

[arboskittler]

Hi Russ.

Do we have a name for your Great Uncle?

Andy.

[RussT]

Hi Andy,

His name is Pvt Thomas Hayes

Regards

Russ

[David Porter]

Russ,

A reasonable guess is that the number was issued in April 1916.

Most men with RFA numbers like this were enlisted under the Derby Scheme or were early conscripts.

They were then sent to one of the many Training Depots or Reserve batteries.

I've looked at the (batches of) numbers issued to those going to No.7 (TF) Artillery Training School:

Nos. 131972 to 133519 were issued between 25-03-16 and 16-04-16

Nos. 138967 to 139940 were issued between 20-04-16 and 29-05-16

Different depots had different batches - if you look for numbers either side of his you may see a pattern.

From what I have seen a move from RFA to infantry at this time was rare and it would be interesting to find out the reason.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but one man I found joined the Scots Guards after 6 months in prison for theft during training.

Most of the men were trained for artillery work and that is where they ended up.

[RussT]

David,

Many thanks for your considered response – that’s given me plenty to think about – particularly your last point!!

I hope you don’t mind me following up with a few supplementary questions because I’m finding this level of detail really interesting, and it is helps me build up a much better picture of what may have been likely, but realising of course one clearly can’t be definitive without his service records (which have been lost).

I think your estimated enlistment date looks entirely reasonable to me, - I know for example from his Infantry Bn service Number that he wasn’t at the start of the Somme because I’ve got a full list of all members of his Bn up to July 1^st 1916, and he doesn’t appear in that list, plus his Bn service number seems too high to have joined that Bn any earlier anyway.

I take it that you have accumulated your own records, through research, of the RFA service number issue dates around the number of my Great Uncle - or are those Nos/dates published somewhere?

I had done something a bit similar by searching for all RFA men who fell in the war with service numbers from 137000 to 139000, getting 125 records with the earliest death being on 21/07/1916 for J. Boardman No. 137670. But nearly all these deaths occurred from April 1917 onwards, so perhaps this is more likely to be the earliest date of my GU’s entry to theatre. Of course I could perhaps get a better fix on the entry to theatre date by searching records for survivors with Numbers near my GU’s, and your information helps with that.

You suggest No 7 (TF) ATS as good candidate. Does TF stand for territorial force? And would these be used to train volunteers/conscripts?

Your comment that a transfer out of an RFA unit to an infantry unit being rare is very interesting indeed, and the example you provide seems to indicate that this could have been part of a punishment. Is that because the infantry was considered to be sort of inferior to the artillery? One does here that the cavalry in those days was sort of the “senior” or more “exclusive” service. So was there a sort of hierarchy in the various army services?

Finally, if I were to assume he nevertheless completed his artillery training in a manner that was typical for new recruits in 1916, what would typically be the length of time for that training, assuming he was a low ranker? – a family member does recall a picture of him in uniform on a horse with a bandolier across his chest – would that indicate something like a driver? That length of training would give me a feel for the latest date of entry to theatre if his Number issue date was indeed circa April 1916.

I realise this can be very speculative, and it doesn’t change the important things but I would like to explore what the likely possibilities may have been.

Many thanks for your help,

Russ

[David Porter]

Russ,

Have you seen the home based Royal Artillery page on the Long Long Trail? - here

The man you mentioned, John Boardman 137670, was in 7th Reserve Battery and died at home not overseas.

7th Reserve Battery was one of the batteries in 2A Reserve Brigade at Preston and John Boardman was buried in Lancashire.

It is easy to see that a few men training in Preston could be tranferred to the Lancashire Fusiliers.

Of course, just as I say it was rare I find another one:

Medal card of Brown, John

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Field Artillery 137919

Lancashire Fusiliers 25738 Private

The unit I mentioned before was part of the Territorial Force and is only linked to the number batches I gave.

It would appear that at least the last 400 in the 137xxx series are linked to 2A Reserve Brigade at Preston.

I don't have access to Ancestry at the moment but you should be able to find more examples in this number range.

There is no suggestion that a transfer to the infantry was a punishment - it was just something I found.

[RussT]

David

Thanks for the additional information.

My GU's 15th Bn LF Number was 25911, so this and his RFA Number are not that very different to both Nos of John Brown, who you mention. Perhaps it wasn't that rare after all!

But if J Brown's MIC has both of his service Numbers on it, he must have been transferred in France, whereas my GU's MIC just has his LF Bn number, so they are therefore unlikely to have been transferred together as some sort of common batch re-assignment.

You are right, I think it would be worth my while spending a few hours researching the records of men around these numbers to see if a more fuller picture emerges.

I had seen the info on the LLT site but it didn't have much direct relevance to my study because it doesn't relate units to sevice numbers.

Regards

Russ

[David Porter]

There are definitely more of these than I thought.

Just found:

Name: John FAWCETT

Rank: PRIVATE

Initials: J

Birthplace: Hawes, Yorks

Residence: Higher Broughton, Lancs

Enlisted: Manchester

Regiment, Corps etc.: Lancashire Fusiliers

Battalion etc.: 2nd Battalion.

Number: 25846

Date died: 12 December 1916

How died: Killed in action

Theatre of war: France & Flanders

Supplementary Notes: FORMERLY 137633, R.H. & R.F.A.

This does indicate that the ex. RFA training lads were in action with the Lancashire Fusiliers before the end of 1916.

Also

Name: Horace George FAULKNER

Rank: PRIVATE

Initials: H G

Birthplace: Quarry Bank, Staffs

Residence:

Enlisted: Birmingham

Regiment, Corps etc.: Lancashire Fusiliers

Battalion etc.: 2/5th Battalion

Number: 25842

Date died: 9 April 1918

How died: Killed in action

Theatre of war: France & Flanders

Supplementary Notes: FORMERLY 137781, R.F.A.

and

Name: David John JONES

Rank: PRIVATE

Initials: D J

Birthplace: Festiniog, Merioneth

Residence: Festiniog

Enlisted: Barmouth, Merioneth

Regiment, Corps etc.: Lancashire Fusiliers

Battalion etc.: 15th Battalion.

Number: 25913

Date died: 25 December 1917

How died: Killed in action

Theatre of war: France & Flanders

Supplementary Notes: FORMERLY 137577, R.F.A.

[RussT]

David,

Thanks for posting those additional examples.

Perhaps it is indeed more common than thought. As per my original post, I'm wondering whether after the Somme there were so many infantry Bns very short of numbers that there was some significant number of transfers of RFA men, who at least would have had some key discipline skills above the more raw recruits coming through the system.

Eirther way, I thinks I'll give further study.

Regards

Russ

[David Porter]

I am now convinced that these men were plucked from the RFA training programme at Preston. The losses during the Battle of the Somme (where eleven Lancashire Fusiliers battalions saw action) does seem to be an influencing factor. I'd be interested to see a service record example of the date these men were diverted to infantry. A move on this scale would surely require authorisation via a War Office letter or an Army Council Instruction.

[macfarro]

Interesting discussion, I have a similar example and assumed that it was a common occurence driven by the manpower needs at the time, and also that it would have been a 'mass transfer' of men rather than individual postings.

Pvt. Charles Henry Hollingworth No. 41763 Yorkshire Regt. (Green Howards)

According to SDGW:

Enlisted Pontefract 6/10/1916

Died 30/10/1917

Formerly 185012 RFA

According to local newspapers he left for France 25/12/1916 with RFA but was transferred to the Yorks Regt shortly after (MIC has no mention of RFA)

I wonder how specific to RFA the basic training could have been, given he shipped out approx 11 weeks after enlistment?

regards

Rob

[RussT]

Rob

Many thanks for contributing that - because that has added something significant to my general knowledge (I'm sure that will continue).

That you know your man left for France with the RFA but that there is no mention of RFA on his MIC tells me there could be a possibility that my GU was similary transferred in France. I had believed this was not the case, because .....

Reading the guidance on LLT on how to interprete a MIC plus what other members have posted on these things in this forum, convinced me (I think now incorrectely) that a MIC would only contain his corps on arrival in theatre plus any others to which he may have transfered whilst in theatre. It's accepted that none of a soldier's previous corps would be on his MIC if a transfer occurred in the UK, irrespective of how many transfers he may have experienced whilst in the UK.

So my conclusion in my earlier post, that my GU could not have been in the same RFA batch transfer to an Infantry Bn as some other soldier, even though they have similar RFA service numbers, just because his MIC has his RFA on it and my GU's doesn't, is incorrect.

That's really useful to know, and having spent hours on this forum reading many threads other than those directly revelant to me, solely in order to pick up tips on how/where to look for records, never have I seen this possibility raised before. Of course, I am relying on the accuracy of your souce being "local papers" - there may be a possibility that it was reported incorrectly that your man went to France with the RFA - what do you think?

Reading general texts on the Great War (e.g. Tommy by Richard Holmes) mention is made of large swathes of drafts arriving from mid 1916 onwards at the "circus" schools at Etaples, undergoing training and then being assigned to whatever Bn as and when they were required and ready to go forward. I'm just wondering whether my GU was one of those 100000s and possibly your man too. Any thoughts?

Regards

Russ

[macfarro]

Hi Russ

My understanding has always been the same as yours in that the MIC would only include the unit with which the soldier entered the theatre of war and I always considered that the newspaper report was wrong - given by a family member a year after the event.

The only thing that perhaps backs up the story was a snippet from a late much respected forum member with an interest in the Green Howards (6th Batt Yorks) who checked the regimental diary and confirmed that they did receive drafts early in 1917. Unfortunately the diary did not state where the drafts were from.

I was hoping the service records had survived and I might finally get clarification but no such luck

best regards

Rob

[macfarro]

Just to add to the topic there was a prior discussion regarding transfers from the RFA to the Lancashire Fusiliers

Not sure I'm up to correctly posting links but I'll give at a go - the originall topic shows an excerpt of a service record with the notation 'compulsory transfer'

 

regards

Rob

My link

[RussT]

Rob

The link worked - well remembered - it's a pity not more people added to that discussion - nor this one - because I'm sure there's pals on this forum who could give us more definitive insight.

Frustratingly, the excerpt on the link gives neither the RFA service number of that man nor his Bn No in the Lanc Fus (although I can at least see the his LF service number in the OP's profile footnotes, which is in the 20000s like my GU, so this my GU could well have been part of the same draft transfers to the Lanc Fus. And I also think that a late 1916 entry into theatre is the mosly likely date for my GU.

Hopefully, someone else may pop some posts on here to shed some further light.

Regards

Russ

[David Porter]

Rob,

Thank you for posting that link - another piece of the jigsaw. There are 2 transfers shown.

The first from RFA to 48th Training Reserve Battalion, 11th Reserve Brigade at Prees Heath (initiated by a WO telegram).

The second from 48th Training Reserve Battalion to Lancashire Fusiliers (there is a feint Battalion number given - 18?).

Also of interest is the number given to William Tennet, which was lower than the other people I found, for a transfer on 14-01-17.

Yet we have 25846 John Fawcett KIA with Lancashire Fusiliers on 12-12-16 - so when were the new numbers dished out?

I would like to see more service record examples like this to make sense of it.

[RussT]

David

Yes, I saw what looks like to be a Bn Number for that LF but I couldn't make it out - it looks like a "D" so I gave up on that but perhaps it is "18".

I need to do more searching for the 3rd man you listed in your post #8 - Pvt David John Jones.

His numbers are very close to my GU's

Both are 15th Bn LF, both formerly RFA

D R Jones LF No = 25913, T Hayes LF No = 25911

D R Jones former RFA No = 137577, T Hayes former RFA No = 137964

If I can find an enlistement date, transfer date or a date of entry into France for David Jones, this might give me reasonable dates for my GU, Thomas Hayes.

Regards

Russ

[David Porter]

it looks like a "D" so I gave up on that but perhaps it is "18".

I need to do more searching for the 3rd man you listed in your post #8 - Pvt David John Jones.

It was above the "D" and very feint.

You could try casting the net a little wider to numbers 30 or 40 either side of David John Jones.

I have found something else with regards to the service record in the other post.

You may see a third number on the MIC which corresponds to a Training Reserve period.

e.g.

Medal card of Bodman, Alfred

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Field Artillery 165078 Private

Shropshire Light Infantry TR/1097 Private

Lancashire Fusiliers 22761 Private

Medal card of Bootherway, John A

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Field Artillery 165698

Shropshire Light Infantry 1098

Lancashire Fusiliers 22762 Private

Medal card of Barnes, Amos

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Field Artillery 165148 Private

Shropshire Light Infantry 1101 Private

Lancashire Fusiliers 22765 Private

Why Shropshire Light Infantry? It is because 48th Training Reserve Battalion was formed by them.

See http://www.1914-1918.net/training_reserve.htm

[RussT]

Following from the above discussion, I have now accumulated quite a number of service records for men with RFA Service Numbers lying in the range of my interest 136xxx to 140xxx, attesting in late 1915 (no doubt under the Derby Scheme), mobilised mid May 1916 and posted to the RFA No 2 Depot at Preston. As discussed above, I am interested in those RFA who were then transferred to the Lancashire Fusiliers (with Service Numbers in the range 25xxx to 26xxx

A classic service record example is illustrated here. This is for George Ravenscroft who attested in Northwich 8^th Dec 1915. He was mobilsed on 18^th May 1916 and posted to the No 2 Depot RFA Preston and the next day to 7^th Res Bty (No 137888). On 17^th June 1916 he was transferred to the 3^rd Bn Lanc Fus and was then with the 10^th Bn Lanc Fus (No 25938). His medical record shows he was in Hospital in Hull early 1917, and afterwards it seems he was transferred to the 8^th Bn Loyal N Lanc Rgt (No 28034). His MIC shows both Lanc Fus and LNLR, although his medals were apparently awarded to him for his services with the Lanc Fus.

In relation to his original transfer from the RFA to Lanc Fus (like many others in the RFA number series of interest), David in post #10 suggests that “A move on this scale would surely require authorisation via a War Office letter or an Army Council Instruction”.

I was thinking that the remarks on this example record, (which appear on most of the other relevant records I’ve seen) just below the Lanc Fus posting, may well be this authorisation.

I was hoping someone could provide a complete transcription of those remarks and the meaning/context behind them.

Russ

[David Porter]

Russ,

Thank you for alerting me to your updated thread.

The reference seems to read "Authy 115/Artlly/3682 A.G. 2B.(S) d/10/6/16" which is the typical form, with date, of a War Office letter.

A letter like this would most probably be generated as a result of an Army Council Instruction. All ACIs are available to view at the National Archives. With a bit of luck, searching those concerning transfers for June 1916 or just before could reveal the relevant instruction as they do have WO letter codes attached. The letters themselves have probably long since disappeared.

These little codes that turn up in service records should not be overlooked. They could provide the reason for a mysterious transfer, especially if it can be shown to apply to a group of men.

[RussT]

David

Many thanks for having a look at this and providing a transcription of, and comments on, those remarks. I'll try to follow up on your advice with respect to the ACI at the NA.

Tho ACI remarks are identical for all these RFA/LF men I've so far found in service records - I must have around 30 or so by now, which is a good sample - but of course there would have been many more which can't be proven because as you know most service records did not survive.

Incidently, it seems clear that the RFA recruitment depots were allocated blocks of these six-figure numbers (for Derby Scheme men and Conscripts - on Attestation Forms B2512 and B2513 resp) - all mobilised around April to May 1916, and transferring June 1916. There seems to be a reasonable correlation between the RFA Number sequence and the Mobilisation date - not the Attestation date, which for Derby men was many months before ~ Nov and Dec 1915.

All the 136xxx, 137xxx and 138xxx RFA men were posted to No 2 RFA depot in Preston. I've justed started on the 140xxx series and so far all those RFA men were posted on call-up to the No 1 depot in Newcastle. I've just found my first service record of an RFA man with a 140xxx number transferring to the Lanc Fus, and this has the identical ACI remarks on his papers. So it seems clear that this ACI went out to at least 2 RFA depots at least.

I'll keep you posted on developments.

Regards

Russ

[David Porter]

Incidently, it seems clear that the RFA recruitment depots were allocated blocks of these six-figure numbers

Yes, that is right, and the number was issued to each man on arrival at depot.

This block analysis would have been pretty impossible without the Ancestry index.

Just so you do not duplicate effort, I have looked at many in 132xxx, 133xxx, 139xxx, 151xxx, 172xxx, 196xxx and 206xxx.

The 196xxx series is interesting as there are three groups of about 50 men each who transfer into the RFA.

1] from ASC Remounts R/4 prefix - auth. War Office Letter 116/Rem Depots/1011 (QMS4) dated November 20, 1916

2] from Training Reserve TR/9 and TR/5 prefix - auth. War Office Letter 115/Inf/1579 (AG 1) dated December 5, 1916

3] from AVC TF TT0 prefix - auth. War Office Letter 49/Artificers/2001 (V.D.) dated October 26, 1916

As you can see, 3 different WO letters but the end result is the same.

[RussT]

David

Yes, I had done a few spot checks on some the other six-figure series of numbers including some of those you've done just to confirm my suspicions on blocks of numbers being allocated to various depots - and sure enough seen blocks for Glasgow, others for Hilsea, Woolwich etc.

I have quite a few Lanc Fus men formerly RFA with 118xxx and a few with ex 116xxx, so I'll probably do those once I've finished doing the ex- 140xxx series.

It's quite a trawl given the many transcription errors on Ancestry and what often appears to be duplicate numbers when in fact you find they were actually RGA men for example when you look closer at the records or MICs. Still have a few duplicate numbers which I can't resolve but I've parked those for the moment in order to concentrate on the bigger picture.

Regards

Russ