T/Capt. Loris Arthur Arnould RAMC

[BJanman]

Hi

Whilst going through the Saint Bartholomew Roll of Honour I came across Temporary Captain Loris Arthur Arnould RAMC who died on 18th December 1916, he became infected with plague whilst attending plague cases in the Bhusvaal District in India. I couldn't trace him on the CWGC website but set up a profile for him on the RAMC database - here

Capt Arnould's granddaughter recently left additional information on Loris's profile on the website so I replied asking if she had proof that he was a serving officer in the RAMC when he died because the write up in the roll of honour suggests that he was still serving - she has replied saying she does not have proof but as far as she is aware he was still serving. This has prompted me to ask if it is possible that he was missed and should be commemorated by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Can anyone help?

Thanks

Barbara

[David_Underdown]

Unfortunately, I think all files for temporary medical officers have been destroyed (I certainly can't find hin in WO 338), so Army List and London Gazette are the only avenues open

[John_Hartley]

He's not listed in the GRO overseas deaths, nor can I find any mention of him in the London Gazette.

I think the next sources of evidence will be the Army List, either side of his date of death and his service file at Kew.

[chrisharley9]

I have got his death notice from the Times at home so will post it up later

Chris

[BJanman]

Thanks for all your replies.

I have a copy of the 1915 Army List on CD and am sure I checked it at the time, however I will check it again. Does anyone know if the Army Lists are held at Kew, if so I can check the 1916 Army List next time I am there - depending on what the Times reported, I guess.

Thanks again.

Barbara

[David_Underdown]

Yes there's a complete run of army lists at Kew

[BJanman]

OK thanks, I'll try and track them down. I should be there is a couple of weeks time.

In the meantime, I've traced his entry in the British Medical Journal here. It states he "Died on Service", would that be evidence for the CWGC or enough for them to investigate further?

Barbara

[Terry Denham]

Barbara

Sadly, CWGC does not undertake the research. That is down to the public. You then present the findings to CWGC which then passes them to MoD for adjudication.

If this man was serving, he would qualify automatically as death between the appropriate dates is the only requirement for serving personnel. If he had retired or resigned, he could still qualify if his cause of death was related to his service (which sounds very possible if your details are proven correct).

You will have to prove that he was or had been in the services and (if the latter) that his cause of death was related to service. You will need his death certificate for this purpose (or some other official document)rather than unsubstantiated third party reports. As John says, the Army List should confirm his serving and between which dates but you will need confirmation of death and its cause.

[BJanman]

OK, thanks for explaining Terry. Unfortunately I don’t have the time or the money to go chasing death certificates but I’ll pass the information back to Capt Arnould’s granddaughter.

Cheers

Barbara

[Phil Evans]

Barbara,

I can find very little on him and nothing so far, as regards the RAMC. There doesn't appear to be a medal index card for him, presumably because no-one applied.

I did find that he returned to the UK from Bombay in May 1915, with his family, giving his address as 9 Nevern Square, London SW, so it is possible that he joined the RAMC shortly afterwards.

Phil

[chrisharley9]

From the Times of 222nd Decemeber 1916

I have already tried to find a DC, but have failed

[BJanman]

I have already tried to find a DC

Yay 'Top man' Chris, you were straight in there and no messing. Why are you not running the country- you'd get my vote

The elusive Dr Arnould - He is not in the 1915 Army List I have but it might be too early if did not return to the UK until May 1915 (Thanks Phil). I'll still check out the later Army Lists at Kew but am I right in thinking that none of this is any good without the DC? His death is now listed in three separate sources, it's annoying that they would count for nothing.

Thanks

Barbara

[John_Hartley]

am I right in thinking that none of this is any good without the DC?

No. If we can evidence, from official sources, that he was still serving at the time of death, then the death certificate is not as vital as for post discharge cases. We can use the various other bits of information as lending support to the fact he did actually die and, clearly, it helps if these bits are consistent about date of death.

Even so, the death certificate, or other official documentation of death, is a good thing to have if it can be found. I would have assumed that the certificate should have been amongst the GRO overseas deaths listings but it isnt. I wonder if Indian deaths are listed elsewhere - not least as he appears to have been undertaking civilian,not military, medical duties around the time of death?

[CGM]

I've found this, but I have no idea how much detail will be there or if it would it include information about Arnould's war service or an obituary.

Records of the Great Indian Peninsula Railway Company

Inter alia' includes a comprehensive record of appointments to the G.I.P.R. made in the UK 1849-1925 [L/AG/46/12/86-88]. [british Library Collections, India Office Records] Great Indian Peninsula Railway Company; One of the original guaranteed companies

These documents are held at: British Library, Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections

[CGM]

And this from the India Office Family History Research, British Library.

http://indiafamily.b...UI/Sources.aspx

Scroll down to

N: Returns of Baptisms, Marriages and Burials 1698-1969

Returns of baptisms, marriages and burials, relating mainly to European and Eurasian Christians in India..........

Edited to add this looks hopeful as:

Burial records generally give the following details:

• place of burial
• date of death
• name
• age
• profession
• date of burial
• cause of death
• name of chaplain (no signature)
• Details

CGM

[BJanman]

Thanks for the links CGM and for the advice John.

I've not been to the British Library before so that should be fun. I am planning on going to the NA next week so will let you know how I get on.

Thanks

Barbara

[BJanman]

I was at Kew last week and looked at the Army Lists but was not successful in finding an entry for Capt Arnould. I checked the 1915, 1916 and 1917 Army Lists.

I have come across a few different scenarios of doctors supporting the RAMC in, for example, advisory rolls, on a part time basis, or A la suite (although A la suite officers are mentioned in the Army List) so will keep Capt Arnould on the RAMC database and just hope that information appears that explains everything. I will also visit the British Library and look at the information there, although I won't be able to get there for a while now.

Thanks

Barbara

[headgardener]

2 thoughts on this case;

Try contacting Dick Flory on the 'classic threads' sub-forum (he has a collection of school registers and rolls of honour, and does look-ups on request) to see what info he may have. Your profile of this man doesn't make it clear which 'St. Paul's school' he went to (there are several) but I assume that it's the one in London. Either way, just say that he went to St. Paul's and see what he comes back with.

Try contacting the school itself (assuming that you can state definitively which St. Paul's it was). They may have an obit in the school magazine, or may have details from a memorial volume or similar.

I tried various searches of the London Gazette web-site which is the authoritative source for information on people being commissioned into the army, but nothing comes up for various combinations of his name or potential mis-spellings of his name. Errors can certainly creep into either the Army List or the LG, but given that we're drawing a blank on both, I'm inclined to think that the information in the obit is wrong (for example, maybe he served as MO with a local Indian militia unit that wouldn't have been part of the British or Indian armies, and therefore wouldn't have been covered by CWGC).

I'd suggest trying the school register/roll of honour route; easily investigated and could provide details that you simply won't get from 'official' sources. It may save you a lot of time searching elsewhere.

[headgardener]

I've just done some homework; I checked the 'University of London War List' which details the approximately 9,500 teachers, graduates and students who were serving or had served in the forces from 1914 to 1918, including casualties, but there's no mention of him. I checked alternative mis-spellings (Arnold, Renould, Reynoulds, etc.) but no-one comes up that looks anything like him. Importantly, it says that the list is only of personnel who served in the forces, and that it does not include civilians engaged in war-related activities.

Just to clarify things, Barts was part of the University of London. The college that each man went to is listed in the text, and there appear to be several hundred from Barts.

There's only one 'Arnould'; Francis Graham Arnould who was a captain in the Indian Army. He must have been a relative, as he also went to St. Paul's school and appears to have been an engineer in India (maybe on the G.I.P....?). He survived the war.

I reckon that the school may provide the key.

[BJanman]

Thanks for looking, Neil. I have now left a message to Dick on the British school registers thread.

Hopefully there will be some information there and I will not need to write to the school. I’m not sure if it will help though if it comes back that he was serving in the RAMC, taking into account the other sources are useless without any official evidence. I can understand why the CWGC would want official evidence, I have come across obits that are incorrect. I also know that newspaper articles can be wrong as well, only last week I was looking into a chap who had a photograph of him in his uniform in a newspaper article with a write up claiming he had just returned invalided from the front, but when I found his pension record it stated that he was discharged shortly after joining the army “Not likely to become an efficient soldier” and there was no MIC

We'll wait and see.

Thanks

Barbara

[rflory]

The March 1917 issue of The Pauline, magazine of St. Paul's School, lists 'Captain L. A. Arnould, RAMC' in 'Our Roll of Honour' on page 1 and under 'Obituary' on page 5 of the same issue he is shown as: "Captain Loris Arthur Arnould (1893-98), RAMC, MRCS (Surgeon of the G.I.P. Railway), died at Bombay on December 18th.

Regards, Dick Flory

[BJanman]

Once again, thanks Dick for posting the information in the St Paul's Roll of Honour.

Just out of interest, does anyone know what the procedure was for informing these sources? For example, could the relatives inform one source, i.e. the Times and then the other sources take that information and print it themselves, or would a paper, such as the British Medical Journal, only print information that came via, i.e. the British Medical Association, which would have been passed on by what they considered a reliable source? I'm just wondering how all these different rolls of honour would come to state Loris was in the RAMC if he hadn't gained a commission in the RAMC. - I hope that makes sense.

Barbara

[headgardener]

Just out of interest, does anyone know what the procedure was for informing these sources? For example, could the relatives inform one source, i.e. the Times and then the other sources take that information and print it themselves, or would a paper, such as the British Medical Journal, only print information that came via, i.e. the British Medical Association, which would have been passed on by what they considered a reliable source? I'm just wondering how all these different rolls of honour would come to state Loris was in the RAMC if he hadn't gained a commission in the RAMC.

We can't really be certain, but there's a very high likelihood that the family is the only source for this info.

You have to consider how a body like the BMA would have known about his death. The Medical Directory (it's an annual publication listing every registered medical doctor and dental surgeon) relied on registrants to make annual 'returns' detailing their qualifications, addresses, telephone numbers, etc. If the registrant didn't respond then a mark would be placed against his entry in the next directory indicating that the entry had not been updated since the last edition. If no further return was received during the next year they appear to have undertaken some sort of investigation (maybe sent a letter addressed to the occupier of his last known address?). Some individuals couldn't be traced and their names appeared in a 'whereabouts currently unknown' section. If that was how the medical 'authorities' kept track of living registrants then it is clear that they might have difficulties in establishing whether a registrant had died. "The authorities" (in a military or governmental sense) were only responsible for notifying the man's next-of-kin (and were certainly not responsible for informing schools, employers, professional bodies, etc).

Sometime in the mid 90's I was in touch with the Royal College of Surgeons about a doctor who had died in the 1970's and it transpired that even at that time they would scan the 'deaths' column in the Times looking for names of their members who had died. The only note that they had of his death was a 3 line cutting from the Times. And that was in the 1970's, so imagine how it must have been during WW1....!

The simple answer is that this sort of info almost invariably came from the family, and that left great scope for inaccuracies to creep into reports of a man's death. Sometimes the families misunderstood the nature of a man's service, and in some cases they may have responded to the spirit of the times and ultimately implied something that wasn't strictly accurate. Look at the example that you described a couple of posts ago. I think that the 'In From The Cold' guys have encountered this same problem when investigating death notices in newspapers.

In this particular instance it is possible that a single source was responsible for the 2 reports which states that this man was a captain in the RAMC. At this point it's unproven and, given the lack of any info from the Army List, the LG, or the University Roll of Service, I think it's pretty unlikely that he was. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. There's more work to do before he's ruled out, or in.

[BJanman]

Interesting, thanks Neil for your detailed reply.

I am aware of the Medical Directory, I inherited a few volumes from my father - I don’t know if he had a general mistrust of doctors but whenever he had to visit one he hadn’t met before he also looked them up to know what their qualifications were. I wasn’t aware of how they were compiled though. This has raised a few more questions for me, I’m off to the RAMC Association annual lunch for Corps sunday soon so will try and chat up a couple of doctors there.

I agree there is more work to do. I guess the next place to look is the British Library.

Thanks

Barbara

[PaulC78]

I know this is an old topic but FMP have the following record in British India Office Deaths & Burials:

 

 

He was buried at Sewri Cemetrery in Bombay. There are also scans of his will.