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Remembered Today:

LZ85 - The Salonika Zeppelin


ZeppRaider

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Hello Keith,

I modify a little, maybe it's only the 23th section auto-canons was congratulated by the General Sarrail (???), I have a French paper whom confirm the congratulation of him for this section.

In French archives online, I find "...downed by the 23th section auto-canons and by ships...". For locations of these sections, I don't know.

Regards.

Nicolas.

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Revan, thank you very much for this information. I have made a list of references to French AA units in British AA war diaries, If you would like a copy, please PM me your email address.

Keith

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Hello Keith,

Thank you for your suggestion, I will send to you my email address.

French archives online about sections d'auto-canons 75 (Against Aircraft) in France and Balkans (but in French) :

http://www.memoirede...9456&qid=sdx_q7

The operation book of the 23th section is not here, maybe lost by the past (?). I don't know if it is existing.

But for Balkans, the 20th (Nothing at the date of 05/05/1916 in the book, but the raid by the zeppelin the 03/18/1916, yes) and the 22th (but nothing before 1917, maybe also lost before).

If you want I can create a thread in my French forum for to have more information about these French sections in the balkans (?).

Regards.

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My French is pretty basic so I won't be able to write much but I'd be very interested in anything anyone can offer. What's the URL for your forum?

Thanks for the link to the diaries. I had been to that site before but hadn't found anything useful. Perhaps I didn't look in the right place in the index!

Keith

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My French is pretty basic so I won't be able to write much but I'd be very interested in anything anyone can offer. What's the URL for your forum?

Thanks for the link to the diaries. I had been to that site before but hadn't found anything useful. Perhaps I didn't look in the right place in the index!

Keith

Hello,

More information by the expert member "ALVF" in my French forum : http://pages14-18.me...ujet_1226_1.htm about the 23th and 24th sections of auto-canons the 05/05/1916.

Thank you again "ALVF".

Bien cordialement.

Nicolas.

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Thanks, Nicolas. I have joined your Forum but I don't think I shall be much of a contributor. My French is just too bad! I have to use an on-line translator to read the threads. :(

Keith

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Thanks, Nicolas. I have joined your Forum but I don't think I shall be much of a contributor. My French is just too bad! I have to use an on-line translator to read the threads. :(

Keith

Hi Keith,

What is the text by your translator of the answer? Please. I hope his answer help you.

I add about the aviation, Sergeant Deloupy was with his aircraft near the zeppelin near 2 hours 10 of the morning, but after normally first shoots by ships.

Regards.

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Google does not translate it very well and loses all the fomatting but I can understand what Guy means pretty well by looking at the original text as well:

Hello, According to Hatter lieutenant, commander of the 24th section of self-guns, the win goes to the 23rd section of self-guns of Lieutenant Portalier: "At 2 am, the 24th Division took to listen abnormal noise in the direction of Vardar.L warning is given to the staff of Salonika, which shall arrange for the extinction of lumières.Le Zeppelin toured the rade.Saisi by fifteen land and projectors sea, it is attacked by all the artillery of the harbor, 37 guns, 47 opened fire, even a shell of the Queen Elizabeth 380 shells which undermine an English camp beyond Salonica. It then flew to the area of 3000 meters the 23rd section of self-guns (Lieutenant Portalier) that the attack in the second fumigènes.A shells burst, a large trail of light seems to come off Zeppelin.A the third, it seems hit but escaped the spotlight who seek in vain in all directions. Twenty minutes after the shooting, searching the sky with my binoculars, I spot a long time slowly descending towards the ground ... then we see two strong detonations in along with a huge light on which stands the shell of the aircraft: the Zeppelin has just been burned on landing by the crew ... The investigation revealed that a shell had removed the nacelle rear half of the crew causing the fall of the airship. The victory was attributed to the anti-aircraft artillery, the artillery of the harbor and aviation ". Quote of the head in the book of Squadron Lucas (with an error of dating) and in various writings during DCA Sincerely, Guy Francis.

For the Francophones amongst us, here's the original text:

Bonjour,

D'après le lieutenant Chapelier, commandant la 24ème section d'auto-canons, la victoire revient à la 23ème section d'auto-canons du lieutenant Portalier:

"A 2 heures du matin, la 24ème section saisit à l'écoute un bruit anormal dans la direction du Vardar.L'alerte est donnée à l'état-major de Salonique qui fait procéder à l'extinction des lumières.Le Zeppelin fait le tour de la rade.Saisi par une quinzaine de projecteurs de terre et de mer, il est pris à partie par toute l'artillerie de la rade, canons de 37, 47 ouvrent le feu, même un obus de 380 du Queen Elisabeth dont les obus mettent à mal un camp anglais au-delà de Salonique.

Il survole ensuite, à 3000 mètres le secteur de la 23ème section d'auto-canons (lieutenant Portalier) qui l'attaque à obus fumigènes.A la deuxième salve, une grande trainée lumineuse semble se détacher du Zeppelin.A la troisième, il semble touché mais il échappe aux projecteurs qui le recherchent vainement dans toutes les directions.

Vingt minutes environ après le tir, fouillant le ciel avec mes jumelles, j'aperçois un long fuseau descendant lentement vers le sol...puis nous percevons deux fortes détonations en même temps qu'une lueur immense sur laquelle se détache la carcasse de l'aéronef: c'est le Zeppelin qui vient d'être incendié à l'atterrissage par son équipage...

L'enquête révéla qu'un obus avait enlevé la nacelle arrière avec la moitié de l'équipage provoquant la chute du dirigeable.

La victoire fut attribuée à l'artillerie anti-aérienne, à l'artillerie de la rade et à l'aviation!".

Citation dans le livre du chef d'escadron Lucas (avec une erreur de datation) et dans divers écrits de cours de D.C.A.

Cordialement,

Guy François.

Did you receive my list, Nicolas? Do you think it will be useful to you or the members of your forum? I am happy for you to forward it to anyone who can make use of it.

Keith

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Hello Keith,

An answer was sent by me the same day, thank you again for your file. It's very interesting.

My English is really too bad (it's well the good word) for to make a good translating or simply a translating :angry: , but for the practice my very very poor translating :blush: (no complete), but now, lieutenants names are in bold (not Hatter as example) :

For the lieutenant Chapelier, the captain (commander or chief) of the 24th section d'auto-canons, the victory is for the 23th section d'auto-canons of the lieutenant Portalier.

"At 2 AM, the 24th section d'auto-canons heard an abnormal sound in the direction of Vardar, the alert is sent to the staff of Salonica, which arrange the extinction of lights. The zeppelin does the turn of the harbour. About fifteen spotlights lock the zeppelin by ground and sea. All artillery of the harbour opens fire against the zeppelin, by 37 mm gun, 47 mm gun, also 380 mm shells fired by the "Queen Elisabeth", which undermine an English camp beyond Salonica.

After, the Zeppelin at 3000 meters (altitude I think) flies over the area of the 23th section d'auto-canons (lieutenant Portalier) which attack the zeppelin with smoke shells. After the second salvo, a big luminous trail seems to escape of the zeppelin. At the third salvo, the zeppelin seems hit, but the zeppelin was unlocked (it escaped) by spotlights which search it in all directions. After about twenty minutes of the end of salvos, searching with my binoculars the zeppelin, I see a form going down softly to the ground…".

Sorry for this! And faults of conjugation and vocabulary.

D'après le lieutenant Chapelier, commandant la 24ème section d'auto-canons, la victoire revient à la 23ème section d'auto-canons du lieutenant Portalier:

"A 2 heures du matin, la 24ème section saisit à l'écoute un bruit anormal dans la direction du Vardar. L'alerte est donnée à l'état-major de Salonique qui fait procéder à l'extinction des lumières. Le Zeppelin fait le tour de la rade. Saisi par une quinzaine de projecteurs de terre et de mer, il est pris à partie par toute l'artillerie de la rade, canons de 37, 47 ouvrent le feu, même un obus de 380 du Queen Elisabeth dont les obus mettent à mal un camp anglais au-delà de Salonique.

Il survole ensuite, à 3000 mètres le secteur de la 23ème section d'auto-canons (lieutenant Portalier) qui l'attaque à obus fumigènes. A la deuxième salve, une grande trainée lumineuse semble se détacher du Zeppelin. A la troisième, il semble touché mais il échappe aux projecteurs qui le recherchent vainement dans toutes les directions.

Vingt minutes environ après le tir, fouillant le ciel avec mes jumelles, j'aperçois un long fuseau descendant lentement vers le sol...puis nous percevons deux fortes détonations en même temps qu'une lueur immense sur laquelle se détache la carcasse de l'aéronef: c'est le Zeppelin qui vient d'être incendié à l'atterrissage par son équipage...

L'enquête révéla qu'un obus avait enlevé la nacelle arrière avec la moitié de l'équipage provoquant la chute du dirigeable.

La victoire fut attribuée à l'artillerie anti-aérienne, à l'artillerie de la rade et à l'aviation!".

Citation dans le livre du chef d'escadron Lucas (avec une erreur de datation) et dans divers écrits de cours de D.C.A.

Regards.

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Thanks, Revan. You've pretty well confirmed my interpretation of the bits Google didn't translate very well. The part of a sentence I don't understand is même un obus de 380 du Queen Elisabeth dont les obus mettent à mal un camp anglais au-delà de Salonique. 'Undermine' means to tunnel beneath something so mettant a mal has to mean something more like the literal meaning of putting (something) to the bad. Could it mean that a 15-inch shell or shells from the Queen Elizabeth failed to explode in the air and hit the ground in an English camp beyond Salonika, causing damage?

Keith

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Thanks, Revan. You've pretty well confirmed my interpretation of the bits Google didn't translate very well. The part of a sentence I don't understand is même un obus de 380 du Queen Elisabeth dont les obus mettent à mal un camp anglais au-delà de Salonique. 'Undermine' means to tunnel beneath something so mettant a mal has to mean something more like the literal meaning of putting (something) to the bad. Could it mean that a 15-inch shell or shells from the Queen Elizabeth failed to explode in the air and hit the ground in an English camp beyond Salonika, causing damage?

Keith

Hi Keith,

Sorry for the time for an answer.

I don't know, I remember that a day to have read something about this, but I don't know when or where (???). 380 (15 inch) was a very very big shell. I'm not the good member for add more information. But your question is interresting, I will ask in the thread of my French forum.

Sorry I have a problem by multiquote:

Your text : "Did you receive my list, Nicolas? Do you think it will be useful to you or the members of your forum? I am happy for you to forward it to anyone who can make use of it."

Do you want that I copy your file in my French forum in the section "artillery"?

Regards.

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Nicolas, don't worry about the translation. My brother-in-law was a language teacher and speaks fluent French so I'll ask him.

Yes, you may put my information on your forum for the members to use.

Keith

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Nicolas, don't worry about the translation. My brother-in-law was a language teacher and speaks fluent French so I'll ask him.

Yes, you may put my information on your forum for the members to use.

Keith

Hello Keith,

Thank you for your answer.

Yes, the text in French is too limited for know the true about these 15 inch shells, I understand that these shells created damages for a English camp, but I don't know if is the true or what damages.

I go for to ask in my French forum.

Regards.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've just received a translation from my b-i-l, who's been on holiday. He translates dont les obus mettent à mal un camp anglais au-delà de Salonique as "whose shells caused considerable damage to an English camp on the other side of /beyond Salonika." I'd imagine that a 15-in shell would certainly do that, whether it exploded or not! :whistle:

The involvement of the Queen Elizabeth doesn't appear in Under the Devil's Eye so probably isn't in many records. I wonder why? Embarrassment?

Keith

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  • 3 weeks later...

The original photographer served in the AA section of the RNVR on HMS Canning between 1st January 1916 and 23rd May 1916. It seems that part or all of the wreckage of LZ85 was removed from display on the harbour and taken away for examination on board HMS Canning.

"Lowering remnant of LZ85 into the hold of Canning, Salonika". The black shadow in the picture may have been made by a barrage balloon.

post-6480-0-66977500-1315745575.jpg

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Drool!!! Oh yes please. Pretty please with sprinkles on top!

Keith (not excited at all, really!)

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I am also drooling over your LZ85 finds - High Wood. Very nice images.

I confirm that the structure was taken apart following its display @ the White Tower, and the remains were shipped to Barrow-in Furness by the observation balloon ship HMS Canning.

Best

David

PS: Further to Keith's either posts with Revan - are we sure that HMS Queen Elizabeth was actually @ Salonika at the relevant time? I think it might have already returned from the Darndanelles and was being refitted. More research/pondering required!

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The info cross-posted by Revan comes from a French record of the time so you'd expect it to be correct but assumptions are always dangerous. Perhaps we need to start a thread in the naval part of the GWF? I'll do that.

Keith

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I asked and got he reply that HMS Queen Elizabeth was at Scapa Flow in March 1916 so she can't have fired at the Salonika Zeppelin unless her 15" guns had an unusually long range! It seems odd that someone who was there would make a mistake but some records were written later - very much later occasionally - so I think all we can say for certain is that a British warship fired large-calibre shells.

Keith

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