LZ85 - The Salonika Zeppelin

[ZeppRaider]

Hello

I am currently researching the "Salonika Zeppelin", being the army airship LZ85, which was brought down by HMS Agamemnon (and others) on 5 May 1916. I don't think that the topic has been discussed on the Forum for some years. The "www.lolly.freeserve.co.uk" set up by a previous member hasn't been updated since 2004, so I thought I'd try to breathe some new life into the subject.

From various Internet searches, standard reference works and a productive visit to the Imperial War Museum, I have built up a reasonable picture of the incident and its aftermath. However, I would like to explore the matter in greater detail and I should be grateful to hear from Forum members with any information, documentation, photos or resources that I may not have seen, or with any suggestions for further research.

In particular, I would be interested to see a copy of the prisoner interrogation report of the captured crew and anything concerning the rival claims for bringing down the "bird" by Torpedo Boat TB-18 and others.

Thank you for your assistance.

[seaJane]

I think we met at the Pals' do near Waterloo? I probably told you then that my maternal grandfather was a PO (Torps) aboard Agamemnon and that his son's son has a model of the Zeppelin made out of a piece of it. Also if you've been to IWM you've probably seen their comprehensive collection of photos of the event.

There would seem to be additional material in this archive in Cambridge: http://janus.lib.cam...2FMACL;sib0=218 ("The papers of Commander A.A. Fraser Macliesh").

Have you tried the Times Digital Archive?

[ZeppRaider]

Hi SeaJane

Yes, we did meet at The Pineapple nr the IWM. Good to hear from you. I'm still plugging away at Zepp raid related research and thanks for your suggestions; I hadn't looked at the Cambridge archive before.

Hope to see you again soon.

Best

David

[Rockdoc]

It would appear that the British might have had some idea that the airship would come to Salonika towards the end of April as 32nd AA Section was moved from Jajalek village (believed to be Kajacali on the Hortiach plateau) to a position one mile west of the Seres road, close to Summerhill Camp, on the 29th of April. On the 5th of May, 24th AAS observed the airship from their position at Kirechekoi at 01.45 but it never came in range of them. 32nd received a warning message at 02.15 that the Zeppelin was heading for Salonika and they engaged it "....when travelling towards the Vardar. Fired 58 rounds when he was seen to burst into flames and finally descended into the marshes of the HARBOUR."

The Section was moved back to Jajalek the following day, strongly suggesting that it had been moved to attack the airship. 32nd AAS had a pair of 13pdr 6cwt guns, with a range of 6,500 yards and a ceiling of 12,000 feet - based on analysis of the War Diaries.

Keith

[ZeppRaider]

Keith

Thank you for the most interesting response. I've been focusing on eye-witness accounts of the incident from the crew of the Agamemnon and others, so hadn't given much thought to the role of Salonika's AA protection from the land. Another area to research, I think!

Whilst not knowing all that much about the Salonika campaign itself, I suppose that there was a presence from the RFC and/or the French Air Service too. No doubt someone will enlighten me.

David

[Rockdoc]

David, 24th and 32nd were the British AA defence at the time, Each had two 13pdr 6cwt Mk III guns on, I think, Peerless lorry chassis and 24th had only been rejoined by its "B" Subsection a few weeks before. The French had AA guns in Salonika but I don't know how many nor where they were while the Allies were inside The Birdcage line aka Camp Retranche.

I have photographed all the War Diaries for the AA Sections in Salonika. If it's just this particular episode you're interested in, PM me your email address and I'll send you the relevant images.

Keith

[ZeppRaider]

Keith

PM sent.

Many thanks for your help.

David

[Rockdoc]

David,

Three relevant pages sent.

Keith

[beograd]

Hello,

I only add that twelve crew, including commander of LZ-85, were captured by serbian soldiers from 3rd Combined Infantry Regiment in Vardar river estuary. I think it will be more interesting to publish here on Great War Forum, interrogation report of captured crew, if someone of member has it.

kind regards

Predrag

[Rockdoc]

I think that Predrag's post confirms that the fire forced the airship to land rather than making it crash. My guess is that it flew several miles to the south-west after the fire broke out, based on the position of 32nd AAS, the range of its guns and the fact that it was still firing when flames were seen. Do the Naval records you've been looking at show any details, David?

Keith

[ZeppRaider]

Hi Keith [thanks for the scans!!]

Whilst the eye witness accounts I have read are somewhat contradictory, I believe that the Zep was eventually forced down by fire of the Agamenon's 12 pounder AA gun. After cruising around for a couple of hours, the Zep decended into the Vardar Marshes where it was probably "finished off" by a combination of the fire of the Torpedo Boat stationed nearby as it fell and the effects of exploding bombs on board. Each account is different and I am currently pulling together my notes to see what facts can be corroborated and I'll post my findings/conclusions.

Interesting comment from Predrag re the capture of the crew by Serbian infantry. What's your source for this? I have always understood that the crew were rounded by French cavalry whilst, as one account puts it "drying their drenched clothes in the sun".

Best wishes

David

[apwright]

Hi David,

Do you have any coordinates for the actual crash site? All I can find are references to "the area of Paliomana", which is the cape at 40.594 22.855 on Google Earth, but most sources also say "a mile inland".

It's Ward-Price (The Story of the Salonica Army) who says the crew were captured by French cavalry while "drying their drenched clothes in the sun". Cyril Falls in the Official History also states that the captors were French cavalry.

I don't have a copy of Casualties of the German Air Service, but I gather it lists 13 (not 12) crewmen captured, including at least one Bulgarian navigator.

Some more info which may or may not be useful/interesting:

The recovered wreckage was first taken straight across the Gulf and unloaded at the jetties of the French Grand Parc d'Aviation, 2 miles south of the White Tower, for technical examination and sorting, before continuing its journey up to the Tower, probably by barge (not sure if the Decauville line was finished by then!)

This PC shows Zeppelin wreckage at the eastern jetty of the Parc:

The villa in the background was the Mission School for Girls before and after the war. In between, it was the residence of Gen. Victor Denain, CinC of the combined Allied air forces on the Salonika Front, and was often referred to as the "Château des Aviateurs". In 1927 the Mission School became part of the American/Greek Anatolia College (recently evicted from Myrsyfon/Merzifon, Turkey). The building was destroyed by fire in the 1940s/50s. There's a rather tacky nightclub on the site now, but the immediate area and the nearest bus-stop on Sofouli Street are still called Elliniko Kollegio (Greek College).

Entries from the war diary of the French Parc d'Aviation concerning LZ85:

4 Mai: Dans la nuit du quatre au cinq à 2 heures un zeppelin est signalé. Pris dans les feux des projecteurs il est reçu pars les canons de la flotte et des sections d'autos-canons. Il est touché et va tomber dans les marais du Vardar où ses pilotes l'enflamment. [some sources say the Parc launched 2 aircraft against the Zep, but there's no mention of this in the diary!]

5 Mai: Envoi d'une corvée de 10 mécaniciens et de 15 hommes de garde pour le démontage du Zeppelin; corvée sous le commandement d'un officier du Parc, d'un sous officier mécanicien et d'un sous officier artificier.

6 Mai: Continuation du démontage du Zeppelin.

7 Mai: Continuation du démontage du Zeppelin.

8 Mai: La corvée du Zeppelin continue normalement.

9 Mai: Continuation du démontage du Zeppelin.

10 Mai: Continuation de la corvée de démontage du Zeppelin.

11 Mai: Continuation des hangars de Sarigol et du démontage du Zeppelin.

12 Mai: Continuation du démontage du Zeppelin.

13 Mai: Le démontage et le transport du Zeppelin se poursuivent dans de bonnes conditions.

14 Mai: Le Lieutenant Sitri rentre avec le détachement chargé du démontage et du transport du Zeppelin.

15-16 Mai: [no mention of Zeppelin]

17 Mai: Départ d'une équipe pour le transport et le montage des débris du Zeppelin à la Tour Blanche.

18 Mai: Une équipe est employée à l'exploitation des débris du Zeppelin.

19 Mai: Termination de l'installation du Zeppelin et organisation du service de garde.

20-23 Mai: [no mention of Zeppelin]

24 Mai: Termination du démontage du Zeppelin.

No further mention of this Zeppelin in May or June 1916. Looks like it was only on display for a week.

Hope some of this is useful!

Adrian

[Rockdoc]

So Agamemnon was firing 12pdrs? Hogg & Thurston don't give explicit details of the version fitted to ships but give the coastal-defence version as having a range of 8,000 yards and the AA version as 10,000 yards so there's no way her guns could have reached the Vardar delta from the safety of the Harbour, i.e. inside the area bounded by Great & Little Karaboroun. From the Harbour, the range of her guns would have intersected with those of 32nd's guns so the Zeppelin would have been under fire from at least two points for some time. The MTB would have had a much smaller gun so would have been able to keep the pressure on the airship as it descended, although whether its firepower could have done significant additional damage is debatable, I suspect.

I'd be surprised if the crew allowed bombs to explode on board the airship.I can't imagine why they would be carried inside the gasbag during flight and if they were in the gondola then they could have been dumped, fuzed or otherwise - especially as they remained airborne for some considerable time. Could the reports actually record the explosions of successive, individual gas-storage envelopes as the fire increased in intensity, I wonder?

Do we know what time the crew were captured? The cavalry could hardly be drying their clothes before dawn. The ship was to the NE of Salonika at 01.45, as recorded by 24th AAS, and over Salonika itself at 02.15 by the signal sent to 32nd AAS. We don't know when 32nd engaged it but it probably wasn't much later than 03.00 and she caught fire a short time later. Assuming both guns were firing at 4 rounds per minute then 58 rounds is about 7 minutes' worth so let's say that the Zepp caught fire at about 03.15 and came down at about 05.15. That suggests that the crew were wandering the marshes for hours if the French cavalry picked them up while they were doing their washing. The Serbs would have been just coming to Salonika after being re-equipped and retrained after their terrible marches over the mountains in the winter of 1915.

It seems like everyone wanted a piece of this success, doesn't it?

Keith

[Rockdoc]

Pris dans les feux des projecteurs il est reçu pars les canons de la flotte et des sections d'autos-canons. Il est touché et va tomber dans les marais du Vardar où ses pilotes l'enflamment. [some sources say the Parc launched 2 aircraft against the Zep, but there's no mention of this in the diary!]

Presumably the auto-canons would be French mobile AA guns? I know they were there but nothing more than that but it would be logical. The four British guns at Kirechekoi and Summerhill would hardly have been an effective defence on their own so you'd have to imagine some of the French guns in the Theatre would have been positioned further east on the Hortiach plateau.

I'd also suggest that the airship's course did not vary much on its first two flights or there would have been no reason to move 32nd AAS to Summerhill. If it never came in range of 24th AAS, it looks as if it came over the Harbour from over the eastern end of the Hortiach plateau and intended to travel westwards before turning north, presumably over the Vardar, and heading home. At this stage, with the troops being moved northwards, reconnaissance would have been as important to the Central Powers as bombing, I would have thought, and an airship would make a very stable platform for observation.

It's interesting that the French reports say that its crew set the airship on fire. That suggests that the fire recorded by 32nd AAS was not all that serious. They couldn't get home but were able to land in a controlled manner and make sure that any useful documents and equipment were destroyed before the Allies could get there.

Keith

[apwright]

Keith,

Googling autos-canons brings up pictures of armoured cars with MGs in turrets, such as:

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Armor/Auto_01.htm

Do we know where the Agamemnon was anchored? One must remember that the Vardar delta was huge 100 years ago, covering more than 70 square miles, before the river was contained, straightened and redirected to that piddling little delta you can see on Google Earth today!

Both the Aliakmonas (Kara Azmak) and Galikos rivers used to flow into the delta, rather than straight into the sea as they do now. At its closest point - approx the present-day mouth of the Galikos at 40.63 22.84 - the delta was only about 8000 yds from the harbour wall at Salonika. Its southern extremity was 15 miles away (40.475 22.648), even further south than the present-day mouth of the Aliakmonas.

The river started to divide just south of Topcin/Gefyra, so we're looking at a triangle of about 15x15x10 miles, and containing several villages in addition to miles and miles of marshland, pools, tussocks, streams and mozzies. I should think it would be quite easy to evade capture for quite a while, especially if they did the sensible thing and walked away from the city deeper into the delta.

Also, the main course of the river shifted every few years depending on rainfall etc. It's striking that the Austrian Edessa map (40-41, drawn in 1904) shows the river heading south from Topcin with none of it flowing east, while the Saloniki section (41-41, dated 1912) shows the mouth of the Vardar opposite Little Karabouroun, i.e. roughly the southern and northern extremes I mentioned above.

Just done some more research and found that Paliomana (mentioned in my previous post) was once a branch of the delta. By 1904 it was an inlet (see "Paleomana" on the Edessa map). It's now the dry watercourse that meets the sea at 40.594 22.855. The name means "Old Mother", so perhaps it was once the main course of the river? A mile inland from there takes you to about 40.6 22.833. Very very roughly...

There was certainly a Serbian camp at Goundoular (a.k.a. Gündoglar/Valmades/Valmada/Anatoliko) within the delta at the right time, as shown in these photos from April 1916:

CLICK HERE and scroll down a bit!

But I've no idea what sort of strength they would have had, or if and how far they would have patrolled, as the delta was really in the French "sector".

More trivia for David (apologies if unnecessary or already known!):

The unfortunate Canadian drowned trying to reach the wreck was Capt Norman James Lang YELLOWLEES, Canadian Army Medical Corps, who was Adjutant of No.4 Canadian General Hospital.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=625824

A memorial service was held for him at the hospital at 6pm on 7 May, but his body wasn't actually found until 26th. He was buried at Lembet Road at 4pm.

http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e061/e001515332.jpg

At the time of the crash, No.4 Canadian GH was located north of the Monastir Road near Dudular, northwest of Salonika. By the end of May it had relocated to the "Hut hospital" mentioned in the link above, which was beside the French Parc d'Aviation in Kalamaria.

Adrian

[Rockdoc]

Adrian, auto-canon is also what the French called their mobile AA gun based on the 75mm. I've seen the armoured cars called auto-mitrailleuses, too.

I have no idea where the Agamemnon was anchored but I would expect there to have been an anti-submarine net at the entrance to Salonika Harbour and the most obvious place for that is between the two Karaborouns, the narrowest part, hence I assumed that she would have been within that inner area. U-boats were operating in the eastern Mediterranean well before this date so the Harbour would have to be protected from them. Agamemnon was steam-powered so wouldn't have been quick to bring up to operating condition and I doubt that she moved much, if at all, during the engagement. I'd imagine that a few of the 15 boilers would be kept in steam for manoeuvring and for servicing parts of the ship but I wouldn't think all the boilers would be kept in steam while she was in harbour.

Yes, I'd forgotten the extent of the delta in 1915 but 32nd ceased fire while the airship was in its range because it had caught fire. They couldn't reach the delta from there with a range of 6,500 yards, I reckon. I don't think the Section could have caused the fire because they were most likely to have been firing shrapnel but they could easily have damaged the gas containers within the envelope. I don't know whether the 12pdrs on ships fired shrapnel or HE nor whether the MTB gun, which I am assuming (again!) was a machine-gun, had tracer available but I think either of these is the likely candidate, with Agamemnon the most likely.

It seems likely to me that the airship was damaged and a fire started while she was airborne somewhere in the Harmankoy-Dudular area but, from what David's posted, she was not so badly damaged that she couldn't be brought down in a controlled manner in the delta some considerable time later. Perhaps in the meantime the crew were fighting the fire and trying to lose enough ballast/weight to let her fly home but they eventually realised they couldn't and decided to land where they had a good chance of escape. Given the French record that the crew set her alight and destroyed her, it's even possible that the initial fire was contained or extinguished.

This is developing into an interesting thread!

Keith

[ZeppRaider]

Keith and Adrian

Just a line to thank you both for your wonderful contributions. I am a little overwhelmed by it all!

This particular incident is really just a foot-note in terms of the Salonika front and the War in the Air generally, but it brings together so many different areas in terms of the involvement of the Navy, the British and French Armies (and now the Serbians!?), and the French Air Service among others. There's also the story of the captured crew to consider, as well as what was learned from the examination of the wreckage (see the Admiralty's Feb 17 report on German Rigid Airships - mainly based on the L 33 but includes data on the LZ 85 and others).

A fascinating subject .............

David

[Rockdoc]

David, you never know how a thread will run on this forum. They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing but there are a lot of people here with a little (or a great deal!) of knowledge on their interest and that makes a very large whole. Yes, I've been speculating but I think the picture dawn from all the records we've unearthed between us makes fair sense. Have we moved your research on as you hoped?

Keith

[ZeppRaider]

David, you never know how a thread will run on this forum. They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing but there are a lot of people here with a little (or a great deal!) of knowledge on their interest and that makes a very large whole. Yes, I've been speculating but I think the picture dawn from all the records we've unearthed between us makes fair sense. Have we moved your research on as you hoped?

Keith

Keith

Yes, thanks to the Forum my research has moved on greatly and I'll be spending time over the weekend updating my files.

David

[apwright]

...the most obvious place for that is between the two Karaborouns, the narrowest part...

'Arf a mo' The two Ks are on the same side of the gulf! Little K is the one 3 miles south of the city, and Great K is the one 10 miles southwest (the "shoulder of Halkidiki", 7 miles along the coast from the modern airport).

"Fort Kara Burun", occupied by the French on 27/1/16 (UtDE p.45, OH p.100), is on Great K at 40.5014 22.8182 - still there today but unfortunately out of bounds to the general public.

Adrian

[Revan]

To read I think (But in French), if you want :

http://pages14-18.me...ujet_1180_1.htm

English and French sailors in photograph after this victory.

If you want, I can add here a photograph with German sailors, captured.

Greetings.

[Rockdoc]

Obviously everyone wanted to be the man who shot down the Zeppelin! I didn't know that French forces also claimed the prize but, no doubt, there was plenty of steel flying through the air that night, both on- and off-shore, so confusion would have been plentiful.

Keith

[Revan]

Hello,

For me an allied victory, I don't know if it by the fire of French or British army in first, but allied for me. There were well two French Aircrafts in the sky. One of them (Sergeant Deloupy - V. 90 Squadron - Voisin Canon aircraft) had difficulty for a good shoot with his canon against the zeppelin by the fault of spotlights and the friendly fire (against the zeppelin) and was (with his gunner) in the middle of the fire. I know that the French General Sarrail congratulated normally French sections of auto-canon (75 mm) the 5 may 1916 for their fires against the zeppelin.

I think the zeppelin's flag goes to France after, I'm not sure too. I research about it.

Regards.

[Rockdoc]

Revan, I'm interested in Allied AA units and their positions in the Salonika front but have little information on French ones so far, only what I've obtained from mentions in British war diaries. Do you know which auto-canons units were mentioned by General Sarrail? I'm very interested in the demi-fixe Regiments and their positions, especially the 281st as three of their NCOs signed a menu for my Grandfather on 12th November, 1918.

Keith

[Revan]

Hi,

I'm not an expert about the French artillery in the area for say is good or not, but for me, if no mistake, for the 05/05/1916 :

23th section d'auto-canons

20th section d'auto-canons

22th section d'auto-canons

24th section d'auto-canons

(More?). I hope no mistake.

I don't know for 1918, There are some expert in my French forum about it.

Maybe there is more information by French archives online, I don't know. I can read it tomorrow.

Greetings.