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Remembered Today:

2nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment


sdjknox

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Hi All,

I am enquiring about a relative of my wife JAMES LAWSON born 4 May 1885 Morton near Gainsborough Lincolnshire and died serving with the 2nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment on 19 October 1916 and commemorated on the Thiepval Monument.

I am interested if anyone knows what was happening to the battalion prior to and at the date of death.

I would be overjoyed to receive information from the regimental/battalion diaries for example.

My first post so be gentle with me!

Thanks

Steve

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Hello Steve

Welcome to Great war forum, Have you tried the LLT ( The long long trail ) for information, try these to get your research started.

http://www.1914-1918.net/lincolns.htm

http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/grandad.htm

And here is his detail from CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=799694

best regards

Ian

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Hello Steve

Welcome to Great war forum, Have you tried the LLT ( The long long trail ) for information, try these to get your research started.

http://www.1914-1918.net/lincolns.htm

http://www.1914-1918...dad/grandad.htm

And here is his detail from CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/...casualty=799694

best regards

Ian

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Ian,

Grateful for your quick response to my query. I had managed to acquire the information you linked to your reply but not all in one place! We hope to go to Thiepval in July so it is the further detail of the War Diaries for the 2nd Battalion I am looking for. My reasonably extensive WW1 book collection has only fleeting references to the Lincolnshire Regiment around the dates I am interested in (October 1916) with James Lawson dying 19 October 1916.

Kind regards

Steve

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Steve,

The battalion war diary for the 2nd Lincs on the 19th October mentions that they were in trenches near Lesbeoufs where they releived the 8th Bedfordshire's in the front line.

Not much more than that I'm afriaid.

There the battalion remained until "going over the top" on the 23rd.

Stuart

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Stuart,

Thanks for the interesting reply. I was thrilled to find some more information and am now looking at a map to understand the context of the 2nd Lincs that day.

Steve

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James Lawson was originally in the 5th Lincs (presumably the 2/5th) with the service number of 4808.

On 26 Aug 1916 a large draft of 2/4th and 2/5th Lincs men were transferred to France, when on 24 Sep 1916 they were posted to 2nd Lincs and renumbered in the 40000 range of service numbers. This draft was numbered from 40031 through 40100. A significant number of these men were killed or wounded during the battalion's assault on 23 Oct 1916.

Jim

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Jim,

Ever so grateful for your information. I wondered what the source was please for this detail?

I am going to look at the Long Long Trail to educate myself as to battalions/regiments/corps/divisions/brigades etc and the way these are referred to such as in your note. I have no service history but my father was a squadron leader in WW2 and I am beginning to feel out of my depth with the amount of knowledge out there regarding WW1!

Many thanks

Steve

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Steve,

Some more detail from Simpson’s “History of the Lincolnshire Regiment 1914 -1918”:

(Aug. 1916)

“Normal trench warfare occupied the 2nd Battalion for over two months,” [“The Hohenzollern”, (19 th Sept. to 9th Oct.), “and Quarries”, (15 to 31st Aug.)], “sectors but although the front-line trenches were frequently unhealthy spots, both sides being exceedingly active, there are few incidents of outstanding importance to record.”.........................

“The 2nd Lincolnshire were relieved on the 10th October and moved back to Houchin, thence on the 11th to Lozinghem, were three days were spent in training. But the 8th Division had been ordered back to the Somme, and on the 14th, after a march to Lillers, the Lincolnshire entrained and on reaching Port Remy during the afternoon, marched to Airaines. They were back in familiar surroundings, and when on the 16th they made another move to the well-known Citadel Camp, near Meaulte, the Battalion knew that very soon they would be back in the front line again.

The move up took place on the 19th. They left the Somme at the height of the summer, in sweltering heat; they returned to a scene of desolation impossible of description. Mud and water everywhere and as they splashed there way through to Trones Wood, chilled to the bone by the keen wind of rapidly approaching winter, they had visions of what the front-line trenches were likely to be. On reaching Trones Wood, a halt was made for dinner, after which at 4.15pm., they pushed on and, during the night of 19th/20th, took over a line of trenches near Les Boeufs from the 8th Bedfords.”

Cheers, Terry

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Terry,

Thanks for the detailed reply and extracts from Simpson's. Amazing what the forum has given me in the last few days.

My wife and I hope to have some time in the Somme area this year. Can anyone assist with how I find trench maps around say Les Boeufs which I believe is near Morval south of Bapaume?

Regards,

Steve

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Unfortunately, Lesboeufs is right on the edge of three maps. This is an extract dated 15th July 1916, courtesy of TNA Trench Map DVD from Naval and Military Press.

Roger

post-42671-0-17637700-1305977966.jpg

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And this one dated 7th October 1916 - same source.

Roger

post-42671-0-38679200-1305978450.jpg

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Roger,

Many thanks for the maps. Just think how amazed our relatives would have been that we can see these things and find out about them over 90 years after the events!

Actually I am impressed too!

Regards,

Steve

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Hi Steve rather than hi Jack this thread I have posted new thread under Zenith Trench where my great Uncle was missing /later killed on 23rd. Oct and also remembered on Thiepval memorial

Regards Keith

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Steve,

I've been researching the Lincs in the Great War for a decade or so. Included in this was the way the regt numbered its men. Over the years I've examined 1000s of service records. This has allowed me (and other Lincs researchers) to piece together the numbering system and what its means for men that service records don't survive.

James' initial service number is taken from his MIC.

The date the draft arrived to France is taken from service records from men within the draft.

The information on the draft is from reviewing the service histories, medal rolls etc from men within the draft.

Jim

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Jim,

Thanks for the further information you have posted.

I have not been able to find any service records for James Lawson. I suspect they must be some of those lost during the second world war bombing. The service number on the Thiepval Monument was the only information I had and it was the memorial residential designation that allows me to tie him up as a relative via the census etc. The monument also states that he enlisted in Grimsby.

Your earlier information Tag 7 regarding the service numbers was all new to me. From your note of yesterday I wondered what MIC stands for?

I have my brigades/regiments/battalions/companies etc now in order in my head! I have seen that the Lincolnshire Regiment lists from Ist Bn Regular to 13Bn Territorial Force. You suggest he was in the 2/5th Battalion, and I note there are also 1/5th Bn and 3/5Bn. How do you know which he was in and what does the 2 stand for?

Do you happen to know what company James Lawson was in please when in the 2nd Lincs and how do you know about him being firstly in the 5th Battalion Lincs before transferring to 2nd Lincs? Is it because of the enlistment in Grimsby where the the 1/5 Battalion was formed in August 1914 ,the 2/5 Battalion in February 1915, and the 3/5 Battalion in 17 April 1915.

Sorry that is loads more questions!!

Kind Regards,

Steve

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Hi Steve rather than hi Jack this thread I have posted new thread under Zenith Trench where my great Uncle was missing /later killed on 23rd. Oct and also remembered on Thiepval memorial

Regards Keith

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Keith,

Thanks for your post. I did notice that if you put Zenith in the search forums that it reveals a post of 21-4-2005 made by draperju. Although relating to the 2nd Berkshires it does make a brief mention of the 2nd Lincs. This may be all known to you but otherwise gives a bit of a start.

Regards,

Steve

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Steve,

MIC stands for Medal index Card-check out the "Long Long Trail" link at the upper left of the page and it should lead you to a page about them, and what information they contain.

As the for 1/5th, 2/5th and 3/5th Lincs-abridged version:

At the outbreak of the war there was a 5th Lincs battalion which consisted of territorial soldiers. These men were not required to serve abroad but many volunteered to do so, whereas some opted to remain in the UK. As a result the battalion was split into 1/5th and 2/5th Lincs when the 1/5th went to France in late Feb 1915 whereas the 2/5th remained in the UK. A 3/5th Lincs was formed to provide reinforcements (again more on the home page).

Thus the 1/5th Lincs were the first battalion, the 2/5th the second and the 3/5th Lincs the third battalion. It was a way of showing that all three battalion were territorial force. The 4th Lincs from the south of the County did the same thing.

Jim

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Jim,

Thanks for the interesting reply. I had checked the medals and also the registration details for James Lawson some time ago but didn't find anything (through Ancestry). It sounds as though you have seen the Medal Index card. Is this a different document which you have seen from regimental sources?

The background to the battalion structure was fascinating.

I have just done a spell stewarding roof tours in Pershore Abbey and noticed two names on the War Memorial for WW1 and the Lincolnshire Regiment. James S Annis and Edward J Marshall.

Regards,

Steve

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  • 2 months later...

Hi all,

Just returned from a day on The Somme. Followed the path of James Lawson died 19/10/1916. My wife (nee Lawson) and I looked at Trones Wood where James had dinner the night before his death, and onto Lesboeufs where the regiment were in the trenches and James died. We finished the day at the Thiepval Memorial where we found his name on panel 1C along with many other names from the Lincolnshire Regiment.

Although we knew there was no grave we looked for Lincolnshire Regimental graves in the numerous cemeteries in the area near Ginchy, Longueval and Flers. Whether James was killed in a minor incident with few casualties or the regimental deaths are the many missing with no known grave, we were surprised how few Lincolnshire graves we found. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

Steve

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  • 2 years later...

Found in my back garden in Rotherham, South Yorkshire : 1914-1919 Victory Medal ( " The Great War for Civilisation " ). The medal is much tarnished and knocked about, but on the rim is printed : " Pte. 14124 F. ****(unreadable)s. Linc Regt. "

I have checked the CWGC archives and there is only ONE possible that matches this criteria : Private 14124 Fred Munks, 2nd Battalion, The Lincolnshire Regiment, Killed in Action on 10th March 1915, aged 22. ( France and Flanders ). Name commemorated on Panel 8 of the Le Touret War Memorial, Pas de Calais, France. Son of William Lindley Munks and Bertha Harrison Munks of 9, 7th Avenue, Forest Town, Mansfield, Notts.

If anyone knows of this individual, or his descendants, please contact me at : macsere@hotmail.co.uk

I have absolutely no idea how the medal ended up in my back garden and I am quite happy to forward it to any relatives/next of kin who believes they have a right to it.

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