‘O’r Niwl I’r Nef’ Watcyn Wyn

[CarylW]

Took some photos of the Gwaenysgor war memorial and noticed that there was a part inscription of a song/poem by Watcyn Wyn, in Welsh and English called O’r Niwl I’r Nef’

The English translation of the poem only inscribed in part:

"From Gloom to Glory"

"I'm going parents dear

Expect me back no more

I've wandered far and near

Till I am sad and sore..."

I would really like to know the rest of the song/poem in English, if any of our Welsh members can help (Googled, can't find a translation)

(Watcyn Wyn wasn't a Great War poet, he was a teacher and a poet who died in 1905 )

Apparently, one of the soldiers listed on the memorial, Royal Welch fusilier Private Alun Parry who died In 1916 during the Battle of Somme, kept singing O'r Niwl I'r Nef' which means From Gloom to Glory and Private Parry's brother George worried the Welsh song he kept singing was unlucky.

Story of the unveiling of the memorial, the researcher who funded it and the background story of the two Parry brothers can be found in an article printed in the Daily Post Here and a member of the forum also posted the news article Here

Quote from the article. "Within days of the song resounding through their rest camp, 24-year-old Private Parry, known for his singing voice, was killed by machine gun fire during a major offensive"

Came across another reference to the poem being taken away to war or sent to a Welsh soldier Owen Ashton in active service

Here

My photos of the memorial

Caryl

[Guest]

Google translates O’r Niwl I’r Nef’ Watcyn Wyn as "From the Fog To Heaven Mum White " but that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Mike

[CarylW]

Mike

I was after a translation of the whole poem (or song), The title of the poem 'O’r Niwl I’r Nef’ in English means 'From Gloom to Glory'. Apparently

Thanks for looking

Caryl

[seaJane]

Mike, looks as if you've included the poet's name in the poem title... wyn/gwyn = white.

[Caryl, I just edited some stuff out as I realised you'd found the Ashton link]

"Ask a Librarian" at the South Bank poetry library may be able to find you a translation: http://www.poetrylib.../askalibrarian/

There is a complete text of the Welsh here http://www.gutenberg...8-h.htm#chap031

I'll ask around among my Welsh acquaintances in case they know a translation.

[CarylW]

Thanks Jane. I've asked around my Welsh aquaintances and Welsh husband ( half Welsh, half Scottish) and no-one seems to have heard of it

Wondered with it being used by more than one Welsh soldier, that it may have been a popular choice and known to some of our Welsh researchers here

Would love to know the rest of the poem, the partial translation is evocative enough and I hadn't come across it before

From Gloom to Glory"

"I'm going parents dear. Expect me back no more. I've wandered far and near. Till I am sad and sore..."

Gives me a lump in the throat just reading that part

Caryl

[clive_hughes]

I'll have a crack at it as a sort of unpolished literal translation, but don't have the ability to make it rhyme & rattle!

The intro to the Gutenberg site version states that the piece arose from an incident when a young lad from Abercraf (nr. Ystradgynlais at the head of the Swansea Valley) was returning from Llyn y Fan lake across the Black Mountain, which is the western part of the Brecon Beacons. He and two companions lost their way in the mist, and though the others struggled home his body was only found near the River Twrch after a three-day search. On his person was a Welsh New Testament and some other religious tracts.

I'm going my mother and father,

To a land whence I shall not return;

After travelling many steps

Across many a hill and meadow.

I'm completely exhausted,

My strength it fails,

A river lies before me,

And mist it closes round.

Beyond the Black Mountain,

I see a fair land,

And towards it I am going,

My mother and father.

My way I have lost,

And my friends are missing,

While I in the night,

Search for them all.

But there is none will come,

To meet me on this side,

But the other side,

Is filled with angels white.

As if all saying,

That harm will not befall me,

I go to the eternal world,

Farewell my mother and father.

A river lies before me,

I hear the sound of the waves;

I see them that dwell,

Beyond these streams.

A sweet sleep is coming,

After a day of great fatigue,

And I feel that

A resting-place waits at the journey's end.

To cross to the other side,

Is just a step,

I go to the world which will come,

Farewell, farewell my mother.

...At least, that's the literal sense of it. Sentimental it might have been, but I can also see why it might annoy his comrades!

LST_164

[seaJane]

HI LST,

That may be literal but it reads pretty well to me!

Is that the same Llyn y Fan as in the story of the Physicians of Myddfai?

[clive_hughes]

Seems to be, if it's Llyn y Fan Fach...though there's also a Llyn y Fan Fawr nearby.

Scrolling up the Gutenberg page just now, it appears that the song was printed in a collection by a Rev. W.Griffiths entitled Cerddi'r Mynydd Du (Songs of the Black Mountain) dated 1913. This is the version which Gutenberg have put online, though of course Watcyn Wyn's verses may be rather older.

I can't say that I've come across it before. I don't know what the melody sounded like either, but my guess would be that you'd be hard pressed to dance to it! There's a noted Welsh hymn "Yr Hen Dderby" (The Old Derby) which used to be common at funerals in the WW1 era, only one verse long but sung with dreadful, dirge-like slowness.

LST_164

[seaJane]

Amazon records two editions of the poem in a setting for soprano or tenor by David E. Williams, one dated 1910 and one 1914.

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography lists Williams, Watkin Hezekiah [pseudonym Watcyn Wyn] (1844–1905) and describes him as "an inspiring and original teacher", with "a wide reputation as a Welsh poet, dating from 1875". It also says "A number of his poems appeared translated in Edward Thomas's Beautiful Wales (1905)", which I am looking for online in case the poem in question is included. Watch this space.

Later: the "Beautiful Wales" book is downloadable from here http://ia600200.us.archive.org/14/items/beautifulwales00thomuoft/beautifulwales00thomuoft.pdf but it's taking forever

[CarylW]

LST Thanks for taking the time to translate. Your translation does read well and gives me an idea of the gist of the poem and I can see why Private Parry's brother would have worried to hear him singing this and it probably put the wind up his fellow soldiers too!

I can (vaguely) understand the difficulties translating Welsh poetry; it may sound wonderfully poetic written in Welsh but not so when translated into English and something could be lost in translation? (as with any other language)

So the poem wasn't as popular as I thought then and not surprising given the content. Private Parry was 'singing' it and I found something online that the poem was set to music by D E Williams

Jane, thanks for taking the time to look all that up. Lovely book, although I haven't read it all (I will do) and haven't reached the parts with poetry by Watcyn Wynn. I like the paintings and the colours used by the artist and they are scenes of places very familiar to me

There is a PDF file with transcripts of Owen Ashton's letters sent from France (had to be written in English because of the censor) and donated to Powys record office and the handwritten copy of ‘O’r Niwl I’r Nef’ is listed

http://www.powys.gov.uk/uploads/media/M_X114_01_bi.pdf

Caryl

[Myrtle]

Watcyn Wyn

[Guest wr.]

Hello all. I was looking for info on this song as I'd been asked to sing it in a friend's funeral and I came across this web site. My friend had told his family that he wanted me to sing this particular song at his funeral. He had a photocopy of the song which his daughter found after his death which turned out to be a photocopy of my late grandmother's copy which my mother found among her pile of music a few days ago. Since this pile of music has been in my mother's possession since the late 70's/ early 80's, he'd had the photocopy for many years.

The chapel was full and there were many comments made after about the poignant welsh lyrics but only one elderly man seemed to have ever heard of the song when he was in school and he'd not heard it sung since then.

The deceased was a young man when he and his family were forced off their small farm on Epynt in 1940 along with 53 other families. when the MOD took it and turned it into the Sennybridge training area.

Enough of my ramblings. I've told quite a lot of people today of Alun Parry's story. Someone said that there are three stages of death - 1- Is as life expires. 2- is the burial and 3- is when your name is spoken for the last time. We must never forget all those who lost their lives in that awful war. Wynne.

[CarylW]

Welcome to the forum Wynne. Condolences to you for the loss of your friend.

Wonderful post and thank you for adding to the thread. I'm glad that you found it interesting.

[geraint]

First time I've seen this thread!

Alun Parry born Holywell, enlisted Flint, Pte 8670 KIA F&F 15 August 1916

The 4th RWF was a TF battalion and were the 47th Division's Pioneer battalion at High Wood. Alun Parry died in the Fricourt/Bazentin area as follows

"D Company was allotted to 141st Brigade to dig communication trenches as far forward as the first offensive....The German gunfire at this particular point was merciless and little remained of these two platoons (the 15th and 16th) by the end of the day. The rest of D Company were able to continue their digging work only under cover of darkness. ...Luckily almost all the men they lost were wounded only" My italics. That was Alun Parry.

The song is not a hymn - but its typical of countless other popular but sentimental other ballads of the period. Watcyn Wyn was a prolific author - but his work hasn't really carried into the 21st century. Regarding translations - though a translator can provide the words and gist of a metric rhyme; its very difficult conveying the alliterations, rhymes and sub rhymes; the images and cultural context of ideas and words. Clive has done an extremely admirable translation and you will see that his second line of the first verse translates differently to the 'official' translation. The word "wlad" translates to either 'land' or 'country' or 'countryside' depending on context. Clive chose 'land' (one syllable and fits the meter) but ''country' would have been more suitable (but spoiling the rhythym) as 'country' refers to a foreign country ie France where he died, as well as in Welsh a reference to 'the land' of the dead with it's mythological conotations of Gwlad Anwfn and Gwlad y Meirw... So the official translator avoided the issue and inserted a line which conveys a sense of no return without even attempting to do the foreign country/land of death theme.

Anyhow - I feel I'm rambling; too much birthday wine!

[CarylW]

Ramble on Geraint Thanks for adding to the story and belated birthday greetings.

[Ron da Valli]

According to the Clwyd History Society, Alun Parry was only added to the memorial in 2009. If that's true does anyone know why?

[Hywyn]

Ron

In 2006 the locals were looking to replace a memorial that was demolished in the 30s

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=64163

If I remember correctly the article in the local paper (can't remember which one) was from Jerry Bone of this article

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Memorial+unveiled+in+memory+of+fallen+soldier.-a0196657733

The latter linked article reads as if the whole show was unveiled in 2009 with Aluns' singing angle being given the lead. There's nil on the wall to indicate that Alun alone was added that year unless it's that small plate top right.

Hywyn

[Hywyn]

Geraint

This thread might interest you. Alun Parry is on CWGC as being on attachment to 6th Welsh. (he also has papers which confirm this)

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=199395

Hywyn

[geraint]

That's a very interesting turn Hywyn. Alun Parry isn't mentioned by name in the battalion history quote but is I think the only member of the 4th killed on that date. (Though I'll have to make a more detailed check in the morning)..

[Ron da Valli]

Thanks Hywyn,

Not much of a mystery after all!