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corisande

Who was T/Cadet Charles Englesden

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corisande

I have got absolutely nowhere with trying to find who was T/Cadet Charles Englesden

He is listed on Police Roll of Honour Trust site on this link

as T/Cadet Charles Englesden - 1921 Jan 26. Accidentally killed.

I cannot find him in RIC roll, deaths in Ireland, births, censuses, nothing in Irish papers trawling for obvious words like "auxiliary" over a few days around that date.

Anyone help me find who he was

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CGM

I have researched a name from the Police Roll of Honour and received enthusiastic help from the researchers who drew up the page containing his name. Have you made any enquiries via the web site? (I see there is an email enquiries button at the bottom of Englesden's page.)

Regards

CGM

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corisande

Yes, I have emailed them. But have no idea how long it might take for them to reply, or indeed if they will reply. I am delighted to hear that you have had help from them, gives me hope :) .

Belt and braces my request here. My feeling is that they must have the wrong name, and possibly the wrong date (given nothing in press on a generic search). But if the death was accidental, it may not have been reported.

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CGM

I'm sorry I should have made it more clear that my request for information was to the archivist of an English rather than Irish Police Force Roll. Nevertheless I would expect a similar response although, if run by volunteers, as always the response will be dependent on how much time they have available to devote to their interest.

Regards

CGM

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Dez

The name Charles Englesden does not appear in the Auxiliary Registers (or anything close to that), so the odds are he was never an Auxiliary Cadet. Abbott has not recorded him as an R.I.C. casualty either.

Dez

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corisande

Thanks Dez, that sounds fairly definitive. I could find nothing similar on RIC register either.

Englesden is an odd surname, that basically does not exist anywhere, although it sounds "genuine". If you just put that surname into Ancestry records you get nothing at all. Free BMD gives no birth, death or marriage with that surname.

I have tried all Irish newspapers (well the ones on the Irish Newspapers site, Independent, Freemans etc) for any "cadet" or "auxiliary" at about that time, and noting.

So I'll see if the Police Memorial site come back to me.

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mhifle

Hi,

The only Englesden I can find is on the 1871 Census

Walter Englesden aged 19, born 1852 in Sussex listed as a Seaman on the vessel 'Elizabeth' out of Faversham.

Registration District Swansea, Civil Parish St Thomas, Glamorganshire

Regards Mark

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corisande

Thanks Mark

Its weird, one does not read Englesden as an odd name, you would think that in some corner of England there would be masses of them

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MelPack

It might have no relevance at all but there is a very odd MIC for a 2nd Liet C W Engledow marked OTC but with no further details.

Mel

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corisande

Thanks,

Could be possible, surprising how many with that surname are on the MICs. On the minus side as Dez said nothing like it on RIC rolls. Odd card certainly.

I emailed the Police Memorial site some time ago, but have not had a reply yet

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corisande

The problem has been solved now with help from Loughroe on this forum and the Police Memorial site.

Everyone had been looking in the wrong place. It boils down to a mistake (mistranscription) by both Ryle Dwyer and the Irish GRO, that has been compounded by others. Ryle Dwyer is usually very reliable.

Ryle Dwyer in Tans, Terror and Troubles, quotes in this chronology the accidental death of Temporary Cadet Charles "Englesden". The Irish GRO has his death as "Engleden" and the RIC roll has an "Ingledew" as the closest recruit that I could find. Of these 3 possible names, only Charles Ingledew is findable in censuses, and as it turns out is the man who was "accidentally shot" in Listowel in January 1921. He had joined the ADRIC as a Temp. Constable in the Drivers and Veterans Division of ADRIC in Nov 1920 as a driver, and left some 2 months later. So when he was shot he had been out of the RIC for a few weeks and was both and ex-soldier and an ex-policeman. I have not been able to definitively say what his record as a soldier actually was, as I have not enough data to select the right MIC

It is impossible to say if the shooting was an accident or suicide. He pulled out a gun, which he should not have had, in a pub in Listowel, Kerry, while drinking with 2 other policemen. The pub was dark, his gun went off, and when his companions switched on the lights, Ingledew was lying on the floor, shot with a single shot to his head from his own gun.

So he was an ex-policeman, and the police memorial site are removing him

The final version of Ingledew's life is on this link

Feel free to add anything on his service record.

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mhifle

Hi,

Looks like he was born 1898 in Inverness

Regards Mark

Ireland, The Royal Irish Constabulary 1816-1921 about Ingledew, Charles

Name: Ingledew, Charles

Birth Date/Age: 1898

Birthplace: Inverness

Film #: 2094

Page #: 40B

Year: 1920

Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

Name: Charles Ingleden

Registration District: Listowel

Event Type: DEATHS

Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1921

Estimated Birth Year: 1897

Age (at Death): 24

Mother's Maiden Name:

Film Number: 0101608

Volume Number: 5

Page Number: 278

Digital Folder Number: 4201712

Image Number: 00233

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mhifle

Hi,

I have found the Service Records for no.1075 Sergeant Thomas Charles Ingledew, Seaforth Highlanders, served 1884 to 1909 (Born Lechlade, Gloucestershire)

It states he had a son called Charles (could be the man we are looking for) born 25 June 1898, at this time he was Sergeant I of M with the 3rd Battalion in 1898. The 3rd Battalion was located in Dingwall outside Inverness in 1898.

Posted to 1st Battalion 23 June 1901 so should still be with the 3rd Battalion at Dingwall for the 1901 Census.

He married Mary Wright 18 Oct 1888 in Edinburgh.

Father: Edward

Mother: Florence

Older Sister: Florence, 12 Bills Building, Salisbury Court, Fleet St, London.

This could be his Father's family on the 1871 Census

1871 England Census

Name: Florence M Ingledew

Age: 9

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862

Relation: Daughter

Father's name: Edwin Ingledew

Mother's name: Fanny E Ingledew

Gender: Female

Where born: Shepherds Bush, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Blackmore

County/Island: Essex

Country: England

Registration district: Ongar

Sub-registration district: Bobbingworth

ED, institution, or vessel: 11

Household schedule number: 117

Piece: 1642

Folio: 159

Page Number: 22

Household Members:

Name Age

Edwin Ingledew 33

Fanny E Ingledew 27

Florence M Ingledew 9

Thomas C Ingledew 4

Fanny L Glanville 21

I think the most likely Medal Card for Charles Ingledew is below since he served in the R.A.S.C. Motor Transport so was most likely trained as a driver.

Charles Ingledew

Royal Engineers 281855, Spr

Royal Army Service Corps (MT), M2/201738, Pte

Training Reserve Battalion 57841, Pte

Northamptonshire Regiment 39727, Pte

Regards Mark

post-14045-0-82231900-1306567827.jpg

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corisande

Thanks Mark

I have added that to his page on this link

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mhifle

Hi,

His Father returned the Army in 1914 at the start of the war aged 48. no. 3/7984 Company Sergeant Major Thomas Charles Ingledew 9th Service Battalion Seaforth Highlanders. Enlisted 28 Sept 1914 and discharged 20 Nov 1914

Gives his address as Ord Villa, Saltbrow, Invergordon, and occupation as Marine Motor Engineer.

He died in 1948 aged 81

post-14045-0-60880300-1306825622.jpg

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corisande

Thanks Mark

I have not been able to establish Ingledew's burial place. Given he was no longer in the police or army, then the government would not have paid for his body to go back to Inverness.

Given that his father was alive, but retired, I doubt that he would have paid to have his son's body taken back.

In which case he would have been buried in Listowel, but it seems difficult to get at Protestant records there.

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mhifle

Hi,

I also came across this accidental shooting in the Irish Times 28 Feb 1921.

Regards Mark

post-14045-0-49025500-1307106785.jpg

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corisande

Thanks Mark

Dangerous place Ireland in those times. Given Suicide was a crime, the Army tends to have been circumspect in reporting suicide as suicide, which makes it very difficult to know if it was or was not!

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