Spare a thought for those in the Gulf.

[Guest Bruce Simpson]

Dear all,

I have admired this forum from afar and todays postings prove the validity of discussion. I have very mixed feelings sitting watching the conflict from my computer having a nephew in The Royal Marines maybe on route to Basra as I write. I hope and pray for a swift end to the conflict for all sides involved. I thank all who have left messages of support on the forum.

Yet again we may have sent a small expeditionary force by comparision but none better trained or prepared god speed you all

[Kate Wills]

May safety prevail, may goodness ensue, for everyone involved from both 'sides' (with a few notable exceptions, of course..)

[Annette Burgoyne]

Yet again we may have sent a small expeditionary force by comparision but none better trained or prepared god speed you all

I second that Bruce.

Annette

[stevebecker]

Does anyone know what units of the British Army are out there?

We have seen on the TV the Black Watch and an Irish Regt and 40 and 42 Comando but what is the Div brake down.

S.B

[Andrew P]

G'day Steve

Good to see you here.

There might be more serving over there, but I got this list from the British Armed Forces website.

The Naval Task Force comprises:

Aircraft Carrier - HMS Ark Royal

Helicopter Carrier - HMS Ocean

Type 42 Destroyer - HMS Liverpool, HMS Edinburgh, HMS York

Type 23 Frigate - HMS Marlborough

Mine-hunter - HMS Grimsby

Mine-hunter - HMS Ledbury

Aviation Training Ship - RFA Argus

Landing Ships Logistic - RFA Sir Tristram, RFA Sir Galahad, RFA Sir Percivale

Fleet Replenishment Ship - RFA Fort Austin, RFA Fort Victoria, RFA Fort Rosalie

Support Tanker - RFA Orangeleaf

Fleet Submarine

The amphibious force numbers some 4,000 and includes:

HQ 3 Commando Brigade

40 Commando Royal Marines

42 Commando Royal Marines

Helicopter air groups aboard Ark Royal and Ocean

The land force numbers some 26,000. The primary units being deployed in whole or in part include:

1(UK) ARMOURED DIVISION

Headquarters and Signal Regiment

The Queen's Dragoon Guards (reconnaissance)

28 Engineer Regiment

1 General Support Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps

2 Close Support Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps

2nd Battalion, Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers

1 Close Support Medical Regiment

5 General Support Medical Regiment

1 Regiment, Royal Military Police

plus elements from various units including:

33 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment

30 Signal Regiment

7TH ARMOURED BRIGADE:

Headquarters and Signal Squadron

Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Challenger 2 tanks)

2nd Royal Tank Regiment (Challenger 2 tanks)

1st Battalion The Black Watch (Warrior infantry fighting vehicles)

1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (Warrior infantry fighting vehicles)

3rd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (AS90 self-propelled guns)

32 Armoured Engineer Regiment

plus elements from various units including:

Queen's Royal Lancers (Challenger 2 tanks)

1st Battalion Irish Guards (Warrior infantry fighting vehicles)

1st Battalion The Light Infantry (Warrior infantry fighting vehicles)

26 Regiment Royal Artillery

38 Engineer Regiment

16 AIR ASSAULT BRIGADE:

Headquarters and Signal Squadron

1st Battalion The Royal Irish Regiment

1st Battalion The Parachute Regiment

3rd Battalion The Parachute Regiment

7 (Para) Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (105mm Light Guns)

23 Engineer Regiment

Household Cavalry Regiment (1 x armoured reconnaissance squadron)

3rd Regiment Army Air Corps (Lynx & Gazelle helicopters)

7 Air Assault Battalion, Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers

13 Air Assault Support Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps

16 Close Support Medical Regiment

102 LOGISTICS BRIGADE:

Headquarters

36 Engineer Regiment

33 and 34 Field Hospitals

4 General Support Medical Regiment

3rd Battalion, Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers

6 Supply Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps

7 Transport Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps

17 Port & Maritime Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps

23 Pioneer Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps

24 Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps

5 Regiment, Royal Military Police

Specialist Royal Engineer teams

Airfield engineer support units from 12 Engineer Brigade

Elements from 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment

Elements from additional Royal Logistic Corps Regiments

Cheers

Andrew

[AOK4]

I can highly recommend this site for all information about the British involvment: Operation Telic. It has also an OOB.

Jan

[Hedley Malloch]

I feel that the roots of this conflict lie firmly in the period we all study. Has the Middle East ever been at peace since the fall of the Ottoman Empire? Being used as a Cold War battleground didn't help either....but the Cold War itself surely has its genesis in the 1914-1918 conflict too.

Simon makes a good point. It's interesting to compare the political rationale for the Mesopot campaign in 14-18 with what's being said now; that is we want to free people from the yoke of Ottoman oppression and all the Arabs will rise up against at the sight of Tommy on the Tigris. It was similar during the Crusades. I don't think that British or US politicians understand what they are dealing with.

Essential reading for us at this time is Phillip Knightley's book 'The First Casualty'. I live in France and get videos of BBC and ITV news coverage of the war sent from the UK; I also get French TV news coverage and Al-jazeera as part of my cable package. It is very revealing to compare the perspectives on offer. In comparison with other sources the UK coverage is quite sanitised.

But it always was thus. The pictures on offer in many French books about WW1 are generally much grimmer viewing than those published in the UK. I read once (Denis Winter's 'Death's Men' rings a bell) that the IWM had deliberately toned down the gore and carnage in their photo stocks by weeding out the worst cases.

[paul guthrie]

Hedley the US coverage is much more sanitized than UK which as you say is more so than other. Bush , right or wrong, is right or wrong on instinct. The man lacks the most basic historical knowledge. He could no more tell you the nations that share the former territory of the Ottoman Empire than he could fly. That shows when he does things like refer to the coming campaign as a crusade, a most unfortunate choice of words.

Night after night administration types who must think we cannot read look us in the eye and lie to us. So far it's working, a majority believe Saddam caused 9 11 in the complete absence of proof. Any claim of discovery of weapons of mass destruction need to be carefully examined in light of previous reliance on forged documents and very doubtful interpretation of photos.

[Hedley Malloch]

... (snip) ... That shows when he does things like refer to the coming campaign as a crusade, a most unfortunate choice of words. ... (snip) ...

Absolutely agree. To call anyone or anything a 'crusader' or a 'crusade' is one of the worst forms of insult in the Near and Middle East. But then this is from the man who said: 'The problem with the French is that they do not have a word for entrepreneur'.

I suspect that someone will shortly tell us that we are off-thread. We can talk next month at Ypres.

[Guest Hill 60]

I've just read, on Ceefax, that a CWGC cemetery in France has been vandalised with anti-British/American slogans. Can anyone confirm this as true?

[AOK4]

Lee,

check the other threads, there is a report about it.

Jan

[Martyn Gibson]

Andrew,

A nice list of units involved in the Gulf. Is there no

mention of the RAF's involvement ?

Martyn

[stevebecker]

thanks for the info

Got to wonder why the 7th Arm Bde in made up as it is?

S.B

[Andrew P]

Hi Martyn

The website did mention the RAF involvement, though I must have missed it when I copied the info down.

Heard a report on radio this morning about a British politician saying that if television media were involved in the battle of the Somme, the battle wouldn't have lasted as long and trying to compare it to the current situation.

I didn't catch his name but guess it may have been Robin Cook.

Cheers

Andrew

[Sgt York]

The air component being deployed on Operation Telic numbers about 100 fixed-wing aircraft and 27 support helicopters, supported by some 7,000 personnel. Aircraft types involved include:

Sentry AEW1 command & control aircraft

Tornado GR4 bomber/reconnaissance aircraft

Jaguar GR3 attack/reconnaissance aircraft

Harrier GR7 attack aircraft

Tornado F3 air defence aircraft

VC-10 tanker aircraft

Tristar tanker aircraft

Hercules transport aircraft

Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft

Chinook helicopters

Puma helicopters

[Guest Hill 60]

Lee,

check the other threads, there is a report about it.

Jan

Jan - Cheers. I found the other thread but only after I'd posted here.

I really must look around the forum first before posting anything!

[john w.]

Reports over the last few days of two soldiers returned as they wouldnt fight.. interesting to see how that develops

John

[Frank_East]

Andrew P

The report you heard was from Mr Jack Straw,The UK's Foreign Secretary who stated that the First and Second World Wars might never have been won if they had been covered on 24hr news channels.

I feel he is incorrect about the Second World War.The British population were quickly made aware of the terror of the Nazi Regime after the razing to the ground of Warsaw and Rotterdam together with the later blitz on London and industrial towns.I think the media cover at the time was sufficient for the British population to realise and anticipate what was in store for them had they reached an "understanding" with Hitler.There is a distinct difference between the motivation and endeavour to fight an invader in one's backyard and to fight an enemy in a foreign land.

Regarding the Great War,I saw Pvt Ted Clark a Great War survivor being interviewed on BBC Look North the other night. He is now 105 years old and lives in an Ilkley (made famous by the old Yorkshire folksong "On Ilkley Moor ba Tat") nursing home.He appears to be in good health and converses well.The point he made if I remember right, was that from his experience of the Great War, when you enter the battle area you forget the moral issues,your prime thoughts are to save your skin,self comfort and self survival.

Reading the Yorkshire Post last Saturday there was a report that the Web Site "Venik's Aviation " www.aeronautics.ru was reveaing intelligence on the Iaqi conflict which was from "journalists and military

experts" based on information from the Russian GRU. Whether this is true or not ,it quoted last Thursday "that talk of of an uprising in Basra was wishful thinking".Apparently the web site has being receiving crash hits being in someones line of fire.

Regards

Frank East

[paul guthrie]

There has been a huge bit made about some US media showing captured US prisoners and dead US. Setting aside any Geneva Convention violations by Iraq - I for one am not sure we have any reason to bring that up considering Guantanamo - did not the British work that issue out in 1916 with release of Somme film?

[Guest Northumberland]

IRAQ 1917

I know that this thread is a little old now but some of you may be interested in a detailed piece in yesterday's Independent Review ( 17 June 2004) by Robert Fisk titled on "IRAQ, 1917, How we ignored the lessons of history"

Too much to report here but this may give a flavour....

"Yes, we are prepared to give "full sovereignty" to Iraq. That's also what the British falsely claimed more than 80 years ago"

"Our story begins in March 1917 as 22 year old Private 11072 Charles Dickens of the Cheshire regiment peels a poster off a wall in the newly captured city of Baghdad...."

It's on the web site http://news.independent.co.uk but is a Pay article

Charles

[Guest Pete Wood]

"Our story begins in March 1917 as 22 year old Private 11072 Charles Dickens of the Cheshire regiment peels a poster off a wall in the newly captured city of Baghdad...."

What a great name

http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/deta...&resultcount=33

I wonder if Charles met this Charles, Charles http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/deta...1&resultcount=1

[rflory]

To bring this thread back closer to the theme of this forum and to honor the memory of a British soldier who died in an earlier conflict in Iraq, I offer the following biography:

Bill Stuart

Major Royal Field Artillery

Distinguished Service Order (George V)

1914 Star with bar (40936 Sgt., R. F. A.)

British War Medal (Major)

WW1 Victory Medal with M. I. D. (Major)

General Service Medal with clasp “Iraq” (Lieut., R. F. A.)

D. S. O., LG 3 June 1919

M. I. D., LG 7 July 1919

Stuart was born on 2 September 1890 in Landport, Plymouth, Hants, the son of Mrs. E. Stuart of Camel Green House, Aldershot, Salisbury. He was educated at the Duke of York School and attested at Newport, as a Gunner (Regimental Number 40936) in the Royal Field Artillery on 1 January1906. He was appointed as a Gunner to 105th Battery, 22nd Brigade, Royal Field Artillery on 29 January1906 and earned a 3rd Class Educational Certificate on 15 March 1907. Stuart was granted a Good Conduct Badge on 1 January1908 and was promoted to Paid Acting Bombardier on 3 June 1908.

On 24 April 1911 he was promoted to Bombardier and on 11 May 1911 he was posted to 106th Battery, 22nd Brigade, Royal Field Artillery. He went to South Africa with his unit on 5 September 1912 and was promoted to Corporal on 11 May 1913. On 19 September 1914 he returned to England and was promoted to the rank of Sergeant on 24 September 1914. He went to the front on 6 October 1914 and served during the retreat from Belgium and the first battle of Ypres.

On 13 January 1915 he returned to England and after training at an Officer Training Course he was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal Field Artillery on 14 January1915, “for service in the field” after serving in the ranks for 9 years and 13 days. He served with ‘D’ Battery, 77th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery and was a Temporary Lieutenant from 17 August 1915 to 7 August 1916. He embarked from Southampton on 26 April 1917 and landed in Alexandria, Egypt with ‘A’ Battery, 44th Brigade, R. F. A. on 1 June 1917 and from 28 April 1917 to 19 June 1917 he was Officer Commanding of the battery. From 12 July 1917 to 12 December 1917 served as a Temporary Captain and was 2nd-in-Command of ‘A’ Battery, 44th Brigade, R. F. A. from 12 July 1917 to 24 August 1917 and of ‘B’ Battery of the same brigade from 25 August 1917 to 8 September 1917. He became Officer Commanding of ‘B’ Battery, 44th Brigade, R. F. A. on 9 September 1917 and on 13 December 1918 he was sent to a field hospital suffering from neurastheura.

After recovery, he was assigned to the General Base Depot on 30 January1918 and was posted to 424th Battery, R. F. A. on 16 febuary 1918. On 25 February 1918, he suffered a gunshot wound to the head at Kantara and on 6 March 1918 he was invalided to the United Kingdom from Alexandria on the Hospital Ship ‘Kalyan’. He was gazetted for the Distinguished Service Order in the London Gazette of 3 June 1919, and Mentioned in Despatches in the London Gazette of 7 July 1919.

On 5 November 1919 he embarked on the Steamship ‘Coconada’ at Tilbury and landed at Basrah on 11 December 1919. From then until 16 March 1920 he served with 8th Battery, R. F. A. in Iraq. He was posted to the Civil Authorities, Baghdad on 17 March 1920 and on 19 March 1920 he was appointed Commandant of the Gendarmie at Tel-a-Far.

Tel-a-Far, a town of 8000 inhabitants was picturesquely situated on four knolls, two on each side of a deep gulley where a stream rose which supplied the inhabitants with water. The houses were solidly built of stone and included the political officer’s house, his office, and the barracks of the Gendarmie which occuppied the summit of one the knolls on the northern side of the gulley. The approach to the barracks from the gulley traversed a narrow lane between the houses and was so steep that only a vehicle in perfect running order could make the ascent.

At the end of May 1920 vague reports were received that a force of Sherrifian troops estimated at 500 strong were approaching Tel-a-Far with the intention of raising the Arab tribes and attacking Mosul. Major Barlow, the political officer at Tel-a-Far, reported his anxiety over the attitude of the local Arabs. Outwardly the town and the surrounding country side appeared peacefully and normal, but Major Barlow was firmly convinced that a rebellion was imminent and that an Arab government was to be established in the near future.

A meeting of all local Arab leaders was held in Tel-a-Far on the night of 2nd/3rd June 1920 which was addressed by an ex-Turkish Army officer, who stated that a large Sherrifian force was approaching the town and invited his audience to co-operate either by joining the force personally or seizing Tel-a-Far in the Sherrifian interest.

Early on the morning of 3 June a party of tribesmen arrived at Tel-a-Far. At this point the townsmen rose and the Genardmerie Officer, Captain Stuart, was shot by one of his men as he was making his rounds. On 5 June, a punitive column of all arms under the command of Colonel G. B. M. Sarel of the 11th Bengal Lancers was sent out and it reached Tel-a-Far on 9 June and found the town practically deserted. The bodies of the killed were sent to Mosul.

A communique from the Civil Commissioner, Baghdad, dated 7 June 1920 reported “that a party of Sharifan officers and men at the head of some 300 Shamman Jarba tribesmen attacked the town of Tel-a-Far, 40 miles west of Mosul on 3 June, sacking the government offices and killing all government officials there, including Major J. E. Barlow, DSO., MC, the political officer; Lieut. B. Stuart, R.F.A., the Gendarmerie Officer; Mr. A. V. Walker, the Gendarmerie Instuctor; and Private 32287 W. R. Lawlor, 7th Hussars. The inhabitants of the town appear to have connived at the outrage, though positive information is lacking. It appears that the crews of two armoured cars who visited Tel-a-Far from Mosul on 4th June were also captured and murdered. A punitive column should reach Tel-a-Far on 8th June. Major J. E. Barlow was aged 26 and had earned the D. S. O. and M. C. in the field in France. He commanded the 22nd Manchesters in Egypt from May 1919 to October when he joined the Civil Administration. He was an officer of great physical strength and activity, of noted courage, who had already shown marked aptitude for political work. Lieut. Stuart was aged 31, and had joined the civil Administration only two months ago after distinguished service in the artillery.” He was buried in Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetary.

His sister, Mrs. Monger, a head nurse, lived at Downham Market, Norfolk. He had an elder brother, W. Stuart and a younger brother, R. Stuart.

Sources:

Army Lists

London Gazette

Medal Index Card

Officer’s Papers (WO339/22683)

The Times, 12 June 1920

OMRS Journal, Autumn 1992, pages 184-191

Distinguished Service Order, 1886-1923

History of Strange’s Royal Artillery, 1848-1958

CWGC Commemorative Record

The Insurrection in Mesopotamia, 1920

War Graves of the Empire, Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetary)

Regards. Dick Flory