Von Richthofen Funeral

[david lee]

Hi Lou,

Whilst agreeing about the unlikelyhood of 'last words'----truly I do, I still maintain that it is far from impossible. The discussion I recently had elsewhere (you may recall it Lou) on this very subject still occupies my mind sufficiently for me to continue a 'devils advocate' on 'last words' and 'dead in a few seconds or minutes' type absolutes.

No 'autopsy' (and the use of that word conjures absolutes straight away, that do not exist----it was no 'autopsy' in the accepted sense of the word) proved in any absolute terms that death would have come in a few minutes-----and for some 'last words' (even one) to have been uttered, even through a mouthful of blood, needs only an extension of a few more minutes----the Triplane was low, statements vary, but a semi controlled 'crash landing' seems most feasible----and what Frank Luke could do, shot through the lung, vR could at least, POSSIBLY, have come close to doing. I do not claim him out of the cockpit, shooting at Aussies approaching----but claim it not impossible that he was able to utter something ---death is not always 'in a few minutes' (generally assumed a couple for vR) and we need postulate only , say, a couple more minutes of life remaining (not an excessive postulation I think) to 'allow' for the landing, the approach of soldiers, and the possibility of a word or two.

I know of no incontravertible 'fact' that militates against this possibility Lou.

Cheers,

Dave.

[fritz]

Some more information about Richthofen and his funaral you will find here

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.luftfahrtarchiv.eu/pics/rtod.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.luftfahrtarchiv.eu/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D199%253Amanfred-von-richthofen%26catid%3D42%253Apiloten%26Itemid%3D60%26showall%3D1&usg=__r-zWH8pwzLNij0bxTJIXIsGHSAM=&h=396&w=312&sz=16&hl=de&start=11&zoom=1&itbs=1&tbnid=oV1dqJsweXkfvM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=98&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drichthofen%2Bgrab%26hl%3Dde%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&ei=k1uwTbaiM8q1tAa6mKziCw

Fritz

[david lee]

Some more information about Richthofen and his funaral you will find here

http://www.google.de...iM8q1tAa6mKziCw

Fritz

Only if you speak German though Fritz :)

Dave.

[fritz]

Hi Dave,

perhaps this is a chance

http://translate.google.de/#

fritz

[RAF_Louvert]

.

Hi Lou,

Whilst agreeing about the unlikelyhood of 'last words'----truly I do, I still maintain that it is far from impossible. The discussion I recently had elsewhere (you may recall it Lou) on this very subject still occupies my mind sufficiently for me to continue a 'devils advocate' on 'last words' and 'dead in a few seconds or minutes' type absolutes.

No 'autopsy' (and the use of that word conjures absolutes straight away, that do not exist----it was no 'autopsy' in the accepted sense of the word) proved in any absolute terms that death would have come in a few minutes-----and for some 'last words' (even one) to have been uttered, even through a mouthful of blood, needs only an extension of a few more minutes----the Triplane was low, statements vary, but a semi controlled 'crash landing' seems most feasible----and what Frank Luke could do, shot through the lung, vR could at least, POSSIBLY, have come close to doing. I do not claim him out of the cockpit, shooting at Aussies approaching----but claim it not impossible that he was able to utter something ---death is not always 'in a few minutes' (generally assumed a couple for vR) and we need postulate only , say, a couple more minutes of life remaining (not an excessive postulation I think) to 'allow' for the landing, the approach of soldiers, and the possibility of a word or two.

I know of no incontravertible 'fact' that militates against this possibility Lou.

Cheers,

Dave.

Dave, I agree, and not once have I put forth the idea that it was impossible. I know only too well that nearly anything IS possible. But with no firm, historically verifiable evidence, all we are left with is hearsay and speculation. Therefore, my speculation that his last words were, "Oh no, not again!" is just as provable, (or disprovable), as any others, Q.E.D.

Fritz, thanks for the link. A very concise, informative article.

Lou

.

[david lee]

Hi Dave,

perhaps this is a chance

http://translate.google.de/#

fritz

Hi Mate,

Thank you Fritz, I am quite a dunderhead where the arcane, demonic and esoteric lore of the world of the Internet and its capabilities are concerned

Cheers,

Dave.

[david lee]

.

Dave, I agree, and not once have I put forth the idea that it was impossible. I know only too well that nearly anything IS possible. But with no firm, historically verifiable evidence, all we are left with is hearsay and speculation. Therefore, my speculation that his last words were, "Oh no, not again!" is just as provable, (or disprovable), as any others, Q.E.D.

Fritz, thanks for the link. A very concise, informative article.

Lou

.Hi Lou,

Of course I agree---remember I am doing a devils advocate thing here------but, touching on 'hearesay and speculation'---we speculate that any one Australian gunner---be it Vickers or Lewis gunner 'got him'. It is speculation pure and simple, yet it is often, almost invariably, talked about as if it were a fact. It is not a fact, merely a supposition based on their own statements. Why do we not speculate further (I know we do, sometimes Lou) that any one of perhaps, indeed probably, hundreds of Lee Enfields were also blazing away at the red triplane. We know, from Sholto Douglas telling us, in his 'Years Of Combat' that machines were brought down by rifle fire---in the case he mentions---one single rifle. It is, in the final analysis, ALL supposition, this vR death paradigm---I think real facts, those incontravertible ones that constitute a final closure on a matter, are very thin on the ground regarding this mans last few moments on earth---------and as I am no particular fan of the Rittmiester, this lack of factual substance is of no real, deep, concern to me.

My verdict on this, for what it is worth, is the 'Scottish' one----NOT PROVEN.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Guest]

On 4/19/2011 at 23:51, fitzee said:

Some of you people really form the most small minded pathetic little clusters

 

Here is some audio from the AWM of Robert H. Riddell in which he talks through his experience as a member of the 57th battalion AIF, which includes his description of the red barons last flight: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C386850

 

To save you the stress of listening here is the AWM summary of the discussion:

Description

Discusses: early life; prewar employment; enlistment in the AIF April 1917; mother's reaction to enlistment; memories of France; artillery attacks; opinion of the Germans; living conditions; trenches full of water; sees Baron Manfred von Richthofen, the Red Baron, just before he was shot down near Villers-Bretonneux; leave and mates; return to Australia July 1919; post-war employment; marriage and family; recreational activities.
A transcript of this recording may be available. For further information please contact the Sound section.

I am not coming back here but wont let your slight on my great uncle go unanswered. Would love to see some of the local talent here in Port Moresby help you find your Uncle Wally... mate

[depaor01]

Interesting post. Starts with an insult and ends with  the poster saying  he won't return,  answering an ancient thread.

Bit of a waste of time for everyone so.

 

Dave

 

Edited 11 November , 2017 by depaor01