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Remembered Today:

disappearing medals


beresford69

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I take it you read the description of this topic, if not here it is.

A REGIMENTAL MUSEUM "SOLD" MY RELATIVES MEDALS

Is that a "FACT"

It really is a case of put up or shut up, if the accusations can be substantiated then post the FACTS.

Norman

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With respect, I think "yes" - strictly linguistically speaking, "sold" is a "fact". The use of quotation marks around the word "sold" (or "fact") in such a context is standard usage for indicating that the word is being used with caution or doubt as a description of an action that may or may not be entirely accurate, solely due to linguistic or grammatical inadequacies. I think that the OP was exercising proper caution and simply indicating doubt as to how the medals were moved on. After all, if the museum was entitled to sell the medals, there is no problem - at least for the museum. If they were given away or lost or stolen, that's another matter entirely. We've had some interesting press here in Scotland recently where several internationally-renowned museums and art galleries discovered that their collections were were not quite as complete as they thought - to the tune of millions. In one case, I believe, antique automobiles and ship models had disappeared. In the case of the art galleries, they found that some employees had run an art-sales ring for several years. Recently, there was some story about valuable insect or animal-skin artefacts being removed by some chap posing as a photographer. Can't remember whether that was the Smithsonian or the British Museum. We recently had a thread on GWF that dealt with a dead soldier's photograph that had been donated by his parents to an ex-servicemen's club (I believe) and was found behind wall-panelling. The club didn't want it anymore. We were trying to trace family. It's sad, but the world moves on and, while some of us try to keep our pledge to "Remember", others don't care as much. I think that it's always better to treat these matters with courtesy and understanding of the emotional effect on those who are involved. These can be sad times. Antony

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can't imagine how my new-found 93 year old relative feels. I was told that this is not an uncommon situation, that medals or memorabilia 'disappear', the implication being that some are stolen/sold to order. ...

I am determined to do all I can to ensure the return of the medals to my Great Uncle's family.

Geoff,

Let's not run ahead of ourselves. Had this medal been stolen, surely a few more would have gone at the same time, but that is only conjecture on my part. Certainly, legal rights of ownership need to be established to determine any next steps.

I can understand your wish to be circumspect in what you commit to an internet forum, but how did you ascertain the medals had gone to the museum, did the museum confirm this, and give you a date of their accession into their collection, and a date of disposal?

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I take it you read the description of this topic, if not here it is.

A REGIMENTAL MUSEUM "SOLD" MY RELATIVES MEDALS

Is that a "FACT"

It really is a case of put up or shut up, if the accusations can be substantiated then post the FACTS.

Norman

Yes, I confirm that I read the topic description before posting.

As to whether anyone should "shut up", that's a matter for the Mods.

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Geoff,

Let's not run ahead of ourselves. Had this medal been stolen, surely a few more would have gone at the same time, but that is only conjecture on my part. Certainly, legal rights of ownership need to be established to determine any next steps.

Kate: Your advice is sound and reinforces earlier posts. In fairness, tho', Geoff did say in the next breath "If this is the case . . . ". In that, he is showing proper caution and maturity. He is still trying to sort the matter out. He now knows that some people are as shocked by the thought of museum wrong-doing as he would be IF it was the case. Some of us might be less shocked, others more. What he needs is measured guidance from those such as yourself. I have given him mine by PM but have felt compelled to try to shift the balance of the discussion from time to time. It is an interesting story and one that I think all fair-minded Members would like to see resolved one way or the other. Yours, Antony

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Thankyou Antony.

I feel the discussion has entangled itself on the minutiae of Geoff's words.

:::::::::;

Geoff,

If you could provide a liitle more information, members might be able to provide more advice.

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My family’s assumption was that these medals were in a place where the memory of our relative could be kept alive and information on his brave actions could be known and viewed by future generations. Seemingly not the case. We’ve got every right to be disturbed by that. Please be assured it is not my intention to damage the reputation of the museum system and I have been careful not to make accusations. I’ve just reported what I’ve been told. If I can’t do that then really what’s the point of a forum lke this? I feel like there’s a lot more I’d like to say but it would be very unwise of me. My only reason for posting the topic was to canvas opinion and see if this was something that others had experienced before I investigate the matter further and decide what to do. The opinions expressed and feedback received is extremely interesting and I am very grateful to read all of them.

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Some museums keep 'acquisition registers'. In these are entered the details of who gave what, when and - with a bit of luck - on what terms. if the museum in question does have such registers then it should be possible to 'plod' through the relevant pages until you - hopefully -find the right entry.

My experience in this is very, very limited but anecdotally I understand that the record keeping of some small museums (and maybe some big ones too) is less than ideal. Curators are often hard pressed and errors will occur. They are human, after all.

Bernard

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From the wording of the OP, I am unsure if Geoff has had an official response from the Museum or has just been given some information by someone on an unofficial basis.

Assuming the latter, then he needs to establish the former. Any reputable museum (and one has to assume this is one) is still likely to have retained the details about the medal's acquisition and its disposal. As others have already said, the key is whether it was donated or loaned

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Geoff may also need to show that he has (or represents) a legitimate interest before the Museum will go into detail.

David

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As someone in the militaria trade I hear lots of stories from dealers and the public. About 18 months ago I was talking to a dealer who said it was common practice for museums to accept medals and other memorabelia from families who hoped that one day they would be displayed in honour of their relative. However the reality is that many of the donations are unexceptional (i.e. WW1 pairs / trios and WW2 medal groups) and will never be displayed. After a time, 10 years or so, they are quietly disposed of to dealers. I have no personal experience of this but the stories go round.

I would say the key thing is to make sure you have a paper stating that medals or memorabelia are loaned and not gifted if you think someone in the family will want them later. If they are donated the museums have a legal right to dispose of them, though personnally I think morally they should keep them.

John

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I would say the key thing is to make sure you have a paper stating that medals or memorabelia are loaned and not gifted if you think someone in the family will want them later. If they are donated the museums have a legal right to dispose of them, though personnally I think morally they should keep them.

John

I agree and would even go further. If a museum is going to take someone's medals as a gift, then I would hope they clearly explain that they might dispose of them in this way. I'm pretty sure nobody donates things to museums with the knowledge they might be sold off sometime in the future. Otherwise what's the point of giving them to the museum in the first place? Might as well put them in the second hand shop window. I'm sure they all think they are to be kept safe by the museum for future generations to enjoy.

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From the Oxford English Dictionary:

Museum:

noun

a building in which objects of historical, scientific, artistic, or cultural interest are stored and exhibited.

Dictionary,com:

Museum:

–noun

a building or place where works of art, scientific specimens, or other objects of permanent value are kept and displayed.

World English Dictionary:

Museum:

— n

a place or building where objects of historical, artistic, or scientific interest are exhibited, preserved, or studied.

Nope, nothing about selling donated stuff off to raise money.

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But I know English Law dislikes "perpetutities", so I doubt that you can give something to a Museum "in perpetuity" - in effect trying to prevent them from subsequently "selling on". That is putting an unquantifiable liability on the museum.

I suspect it will require a very clever and/or expensive lawyer to draft a suitable gift deed. So it may well be easier to loan - with a condition that the item is clearly labelled that it is loaned, and that it should revert to the lender's executors when the lender dies. The will (which should state where the item is loaned) can then will it to another member of the family and they are then free to choose whether to re-loan it to the museum.

David

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Agreed. It should be made perfectly clear at the start.

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It's very recent too, 2005 by the looks of things. They're not keen on the term 'Permanent loan'. I liked the policy to offer items to other interested museums where disposal was felt to be necessary, and then to other interested organisations or individuals. They also say that original donors should be notified where possible and if no other museum is interested then the item should be offered back to the donor. Seems a good document.

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They also say that original donors should be notified where possible and if no other museum is interested then the item should be offered back to the donor. Seems a good document.

U-hmm :excl: :

If no other museum is interested, the original donor may be offered the item back.

Quite a big difference between "should" and "may"...

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U-hmm :excl: :

Quite a big difference between "should" and "may"...

I'd have to look at the relevant paragraph to see if that's actually the words they use. It might be my wording to be honest and in that respect there was no intent to fudge.

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I'd have to look at the relevant paragraph to see if that's actually the words they use. It might be my wording to be honest and in that respect there was no intent to fudge.

The plain quoted bit is taken directly from the article (with my emphasis added). I felt it just needed making clear that once you have signed any item over to a museum you cannot simply expect to have any claim towards it even if they should choose to dispose of it and you want it back.

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I think it's fairly certain the medals were a gift to the museum, and I use that term as it would be considered in contract law. Once you give something to someone, (truly intend to give it) that is it. There is no consideration exchanged so the donating party ceases to have any proprietary interest in the thing given. This is not a loan that carries conditions that remain enforceable, such as some kind of agreement where the party lending the thing retains a proprietary interest. The "giver" may hope or believe that the receiver will respect the wish that the thing be displayed. But, if that doesn't pan out, there is nothing the giver can do about it since it is no longer the property of the giving party. And if someone at the museum sells or transfers the ownership of the medals without the approval of the museum, the only party that has standing to complain is the owner, ie the museum. Likewise, it would be very difficult for a third party to seek to compel a museum to obey it's own internal policies when, as in the case of the gift, they have no standing to seek the remedy.

In the eyes of the law, you cannot attach conditions to a "gift". It's either then not a gift but a contract where consideration has been exchanged in return for the thing, or it is a gift and any supposed conditions are unenforceable, or it is a nullity and the "giving party" has never given up nor intended to give up it's proprietary interest. The donation is not a contract that somehow creates rights and obligations on the part of the parties. It is a transfer of proprietary interest and that's that. it is not surprising a museum would not be thrilled about conditional/contractual loans, in the absence of very clear language, since that may create all sorts of obligations dictated by the whims of the loaner.

While this may be distressing in the particular facts of this case, one has to consider the general application of these legal principles.

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I have now had word back from the Museum confirming that the medals are with a private collector. They say they have no idea how that happened. As to whether they were in the Museum in the first place (as was always the family’s belief) I have had a rather ambiguous reply that they understand the medals were handed to the Regiment’s Commanding Officer shortly after the First World War and speculatively suggest that they may possibly have been kept by him and later sold by his family. Apparently they have no records of any of this. Thank you once again to everyone who has contributed their opinions to this debate.

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Good luck, Geoff, in recovery of the medals or, at least, in being able to see them or touch them. Thank you for sharing this story, no matter the emotional cost. God bless, Antony

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  • 3 months later...

Owner ship is a hard thing to prove. In the case of Lt/Col McRay author of, " In Flanders Field" his medals , (Boer, WW 1) were deposited for safe keeping with a lawyer here in Winnipeg Canada. The lawyer dies and the medals are forgotten about. The lawyers son or some relative finds them and puts them up for auction. The family protests. The courts decide that possession belongs to the lawyers family (go figure). Thankfully an immigrant from Hong Kong in showing his appreciation for Canada. Purchased them and presented them to the Canadian War Museum. I would guess that the law would be similar in the U.K. I would agree that medals and other memorbillia should only be given to museums on long term loans or a signed statement they are to not be sold with out family permission.Especialy if the medals have gone home to a the regiment or corp museum this person has served in. After all, THEY HAVE GONE HOME.

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