disappearing medals

[beresford69]

I have been researching my Grandfather's brother who died in March 1918 and was awarded the MC. Last summer I visited his grave in France. In the course of my research I discovered that my Great Uncle had a daughter who was six months old when he died and whom he never met. I found out she was still alive and by an astonishing stroke of luck I tracked her down and met her last year. His medals were apparently in a Regimental Museum and I was keen to go and look at them and get a photo. After quite a bit of effort to try and find out about that, I was told last week that the medals are no longer there and are now in the hands of a private collector. I am quite shocked at this and can't imagine how my new-found 93 year old relative feels. I was told that this is not an uncommon situation, that medals or memorabilia 'disappear', the implication being that some are stolen/sold to order. If this is the case, I am very shocked. Has anyone else heard of such a practice and if so does anyone have any experience in retrieving lost or stolen items? I am determined to do all I can to ensure the return of the medals to my Great Uncle's family.

[ph0ebus]

I would get an attorney, and get a paper trail going. I hope you are successful.

-Daniel

[Kevin Tobin]

I am afraid to say that they are not stolen, as when Medals are donated to a museum they usual get and accession slip signed which states that they are now the owners and have the right to do with them as they wish.

Unfortunately a lot of museums went through hard times and sold off some of their collections. ( I have a simialr tale in relation to an inscribed bugle being sold off.)

[ph0ebus]

Well, not knowing the whole story, who's to say they were not stolen from the museum by an employee, rather than sold by the museum? Again, a lawyer can unpack this and you'll know if it was a 'proper' (albeit unscrupulous) sale or a criminal act. If it was a bona fide (aka legal) sale, make the present owner an offer....who knows.

-Daniel

[Piorun]

Agreed, Daniel. The facts need to be established and legal advice should be sought. Antony

[ph0ebus]

I would certainly advise you not to speak to the current owner until you have your ducks in a row. Hopefully the museum will not give him a heads up.

-Daniel

[auchonvillerssomme]

If it turns out the museum sold the medals, and if they told you they are in private hands thats a fair assumption, then the story needs to be told to the national press. There have been a few posts on the forum about this subject and it is appalling. I don't know who administers the museum you mention but if it is in the UK and there is any council or government input it will be worth requesting a Freedom of Information Disclosure about the practice, specifically mentioning the medals.

You can do this easily by accessing

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com

I use this site a lot with some success, 30 years of working in the service of the government has made me cynical and aware of what buttons to push.

[beresford69]

Thank you to everyone who has commented on this so far and I'm taking it all on board. When I heard they were in the hands of a private individual and was told it wouldn't even be possible to view them, let alone take a photo, it became clear to me as surely it would to any right-thinking person that I have to do something about this.

[Piorun]

If the museum can't produce documentation regarding its original ownership (an aquisition paper), then there's a can of worms to be opened. Who told you you can't view them or photograph them? Unless proof of acquisition can be shown, your great/uncle's family (your cousin once removed) and you seem to have a prima facie case for ownership. At worst, the museum and the private owner will have to show proof of legal ownership. You may have to claim ownership for yourself or your cousin to get this sorted. Antony

[Seadog]

Quote from the first post;

"After quite a bit of effort to try and find out about that, I was told last week that the medals are no longer there and are now in the hands of a private collector"

Told by who?.

Norman

[Andy Wade]

Isn't this a case of whether the medals were gifted to the museum or whether they were on long term loan? If the latter, then you're going to have a strong case. I think the museum has the right to do whatever it wants with anything it owns although I don't agree with the selling off of personal items such as these to raise funds. Our local museum has far more stuff in storage (I've seen some of it) than on show simply because of the logistics of looking after all of our heritage, but it does cost them a lot to do this. Fortunately they're financed by the public purse.

[Guest]

Different rules here in the US. If you donate stuff to a museum here in the States you have two choices.

1. Donated as a "permanent loan" in which case the donor still owns the item and the museum may or may not display the item. The museum cannot dispose of the item in any case without permission from the donor..

2. Given as "donation" in which case the donor relinquishes all ownership and the museum may show, not show or dispose of the item as it sees fit.

Doc B

[Seadog]

Anything further on my post 10?

[peterhogg]

The key issue is how the museum came to be in possession of the medals. If they were given (meaning they were not leant but rather the legal interest was transferred) to the museum then they are the property of the museum, to do with them as it sees fit. In which case you would not have standing to challenge, in a civil court, the validity of the private transaction. Likewise, the purchaser has rights as an innocent third party. If you suspect something foul has occurred, such as a sale by an employee of the museum without the approval of the museum, then that might found a police investigation, though it would obviously assist if the museum were complaining that it was a victim of theft and transfer of stolen goods.

[beresford69]

Norman,

I'm sorry to be a bit cryptic but hopefully you will understand that I can't give too much away. What I can tell you is that the person who told me this is an extremely reliable and creditable source. I have no reason to doubt what they say and that is what makes this all the more troubling. As the variety of responses to my original post indicate this really is a legal minefield. I don't even know when the medals were given to the Museum but I suspect it may have been in the 20s or 30s and surely any 'paperwork' connected with whatever the arrangements to care for them entailled has long since disappeared.

[Seadog]

Geoff whilst I have every sympathy with your current situation regarding the medals you have made unsubstantiated accusations towards regimental museums in your first post even to the extent of accusing them of illegal acts thus, “I was told that this is not an uncommon situation, that medals or memorabilia 'disappear', the implication being that some are stolen/sold to order”. I see no actual facts detailed in your post whatsoever to support this and the other claims you have made. All of this sounds to me like hearsay and in my opinion this is extremely unfair to both the curators and staff of museums generally. You may of course have valid cause for concern here but unless you can come up with actual evidence to support this then in my opinion you should close this topic.

Norman

[dfaulder]

I have been researching my Grandfather's brother who died in March 1918 >><< I discovered that my Great Uncle had a daughter who was six months old when he died and whom he never met. >><< His medals were apparently in a Regimental Museum >><< I was told last week that the medals are no longer there and are now in the hands of a private collector. >><< I am determined to do all I can to ensure the return of the medals to my Great Uncle's family.

Geoff,

I suspect in the end you may have to buy them.

Trying to prove a legal trail of ownership (on either side) may be very difficult:

1. Is his daughter the relevant residual beneficiary, or were his medals specifically willed? I suspect that they were originally given to his widow; did she specifically will them to this daughter - or was the daughter the residual beneficiary of the widow (and therefore the recipient of all items not specifically willed)? If not, you need to find out who is the probable family heir (could be another child (if existed), or a sibling of the widow, or possibly even the parents).
2. The museum may also struggle to show that they were "given" the medals (perhaps a catalogue from the time may help?)

To find out who bought them from the museum may be difficult even if you can persuade the museum that they are obliged to tell you - they may have been sold as part of one of a number of "job lots". If I had brought something valuable, I would not want the seller to just tell people my address.

So, you may have to go public with an offer to buy them back and hope that the "current owner" does not seek to profit from their obvious value to you.

(Sadly this underlines the problems that can arise when someone dies and the executors do not realise that there are valuables and consequently things either go to house-clearers, or are possibly just handed over to a museum. Perhaps we should all make sure that we specifically will such valuables that are in our custody, so that executors are aware that they need to be found and specifically bequeathed.)

David

[Old Owl]

Geoff whilst I have every sympathy with your current situation regarding the medals you have made unsubstantiated accusations towards regimental museums in your first post even to the extent of accusing them of illegal acts thus, "I was told that this is not an uncommon situation, that medals or memorabilia 'disappear', the implication being that some are stolen/sold to order". I see no actual facts detailed in your post whatsoever to support this and the other claims you have made. All of this sounds to me like hearsay and in my opinion this is extremely unfair to both the curators and staff of museums generally. You may of course have valid cause for concern here but unless you can come up with actual evidence to support this then in my opinion you should close this topic.

Norman

I have to agree entirely.

I have heard over the years all sorts of rumours regarding this type of problems with museums, but just how much truth there is in it I am not quite sure. A lot of it, I suspect, comes from the misunderstanding between 'donated' and 'loaned' items and quite frankly without the written proof to hand stating precisely upon which basis the medals were handed to the museum, then I'm afraid you're up a gum tree.

I suspect the only redeeming feature in all this is that one day the medals will come onto the open market again, but when and where is anyone's guess.

Robert

[Seadog]

Robert, I am a little surprised at the number of very knowledgeable members who have offered their opinions on the “missing” medals seemingly without interrogating the first post thoroughly and questioning the apparent lack of any substantiated facts. I am also concerned about the detrimental effect that the allegations made in the post could have on those who are contemplating donating or loaning medals and/or memorabilia to reputable museums or indeed those to whom such potential donors turn to for advice such as I am sure many members have experienced.

Regards

Norman

[Old Owl]

Robert, I am a little surprised at the number of very knowledgeable members who have offered their opinions on the "missing" medals seemingly without interrogating the first post thoroughly and questioning the apparent lack of any substantiated facts. I am also concerned about the detrimental effect that the allegations made in the post could have on those who are contemplating donating or loaning medals and/or memorabilia to reputable museums or indeed those to whom such potential donors turn to for advice such as I am sure many members have experienced.

Regards

Norman

Norman, I agree absolutely and I hope that this may make clear to anyone who is considering donating or loaning family medals to a museum, that they must make quite sure that the appropriate paperwork is drawn up and signed by both parties, thus avoiding these kinds of distasteful misunderstandings from occuring in the future.

I have heard of a number of family disputes where one side of the family has sold grandad's medals or has given them to the museum resulting in a massive fall out within the family concerned. The problem usually arises from the fact that those who sell or donate the medals simply do not take into account how other members of the family may feel about this, or just quite simply do it out of spite or for a quick financial gain. Generally I feel that there may already be some bad feeling within the family which results in people doing abnormal things and of course when descendants pick up the pieces years later none of what has preceeded is fully known, the consequence of which leads to 'much pointing and wagging of fingers'!!!

Robert

[Piorun]

For heaven's sake!! Geoff has NOT made unsubtantiated accusations against museums. He has stated a fact, "I was told . . . ". He then said he was shocked to hear this (fact, again) and asked whether Members had heard of such a situation and, if so, did they had any experience of retrieving medals. In short, he has stated the facts as they apply to him and asked for help. Either give him the help or leave him alone. Antony

[Seadog]

What actual facts are those Anthony?

Norman

[Piorun]

"I was told" is a fact. "I was shocked" is a fact. Antony

[keithmroberts]

Gentlemen

Don't you think the debate has run its course?

In the absence of further information I suggest that it has.

Keith

[wainfleet]

OP stated what he had been told, but made the point of adding “if this is the case”, so he’s airing a concern, not making false accusations, and hasn’t named the museum anyway. It's a genuine concern and he has every right to air it. He’s come to the GWF for advice and assistance in a difficult situation, and whilst he has received that, a member has slammed him for “allegations” he hasn’t made and told him to shut up. OP responded politely and with restraint and is obviously not in a position to go into any more detail, but the other member won’t let go. That is uncalled for and it is hardly surprising that another member has come to his defence.

Hopefully the bandying of accusations is over and we can find out what eventually happens to the medals.