bts1970 Posted 6 April , 2011 Share Posted 6 April , 2011 Hi From another thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158902&view=findpost&p=1536941&hl=&fromsearch=1 i have recieved no follow up so hopefully here is the best place to ask for help if possible. From the information found in Australian records i am trying to locate the burial place if possible. Australian archives record his burial as being near Morlancourt, details record that he was buried at 62D K.19665.00 by D.B.O 2nd Australian Division. Any help gratefully recieved best regards Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cubin Posted 6 April , 2011 Share Posted 6 April , 2011 Hi From another thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158902&view=findpost&p=1536941&hl=&fromsearch=1 i have recieved no follow up so hopefully here is the best place to ask for help if possible. From the information found in Australian records i am trying to locate the burial place if possible. Australian archives record his burial as being near Morlancourt, details record that he was buried at 62D K.19665.00 by D.B.O 2nd Australian Division. Any help gratefully recieved best regards Bob Hello Bob. Have another look at the map reference. It is not right as it is. At a (wild) guess, I'd look to see something like 62D K.19.b.65.00. The ref must have numbers and letters in that sequence. Let us know if you can resolve it. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 6 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2011 Hi John, thanks for the interest. Unfortunately i had the same feeling about the reference but that is how it is written on his papers. From the witness statements they clearly state a burial was made at the time, both his and others buried with him, but again i have my doubts that the location of the action & the ref on his docs match? Sorry cannot ad any more at the memonet Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 6 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2011 For ease here is the info i ahve put together so far PAINTER, Sgt Albert. Australian Imperial Force. Enlisted: (Australian Imperial Force) 01/02/1915. Enoggera, Queensland. Age given: 23 years, born Purton 25/01/1892. Occupation: Station Hand. Albert emigrated to Australia in 1913. MIC details / Medal entitlement. British War Medal, Victory Medal, 15 Star. Extracts from: Extracts from: Service record (Australian). 954 D company, 25th Battalion AIF. 29/06/1915 Embarked in Brisbane for overseas Service, HMAT Aeneas. 04/09/1915 Embarked Alexandria from M.S.F. (Gallipoli). 07/09/1915 Arrived at Lemnos, port of Mudros. 10/09/1915 Arrived at ANZAC. 09/01/1916 Disembarked Alexandria ex Mudros (post withdrawal from Gallipoli). 19/03/1916 Arrived Marseille to join BEF. The 25th Battalion was the first AIF unit to arrive in France, part of the 2nd Division. 03/04/1916 Awarded 3 days Field Punishment No2, the offence being a soldier found beyond the limits fixed by orders. 29/07/1916 Gunshot wound (GSW) buttock (severe). The Battalion was involved with a Battle at Pozieres from the 25th July. 13/08/1916 Transferred to England via Dieppe. 05/10/1916 Discharged from 1/5th NG Hospital to Port Down. 19/11/1916 Folkstone. 20/11/1916 Arrived at Base. 02/12/1916 Proceed to rejoin unit. 03/12/1916 Rejoined Battalion who were resting at Vignacourt. 01/05/1917 Promoted Lance Corporal. 13/05/1917 Promoted Corporal. 13/07/1917 Promoted Sergeant. 30/07/1917 7th Training Battalion England (Rollerstione). 15/11/1917 Southampton. 22/11/1917 Rejoined Battalion (France). 07/01/1918 England on leave, returned to France 24/01/1918. 09/05/1918 7th Field Ambulance sick. 10/05/1918 Transferred to Ambulance train, Rouen. 13/05/1918 Transferred to C Depot, Rouen. 28/05/1918 Rejoined Battalion. 10/06/1918 The Third Battle of Morlancourt, the Battalion attacked German positions. The objective is to capture enemy positions between Sailly-Laurette and Morlancourt, D Company positioned on the left of the assault. Considerable machine gun fire was experienced as soon as they advanced; casualties recorded were 42 killed, 156 injured and 8 missing. Eyewitness statement taken from Sgt Rupert Hill, D Coy 16th Battalion. I was in the action (Which was really only a small stunt) in which Sgt A Painter was killed. It was at Village Bretoneu June 10/18. Painter was hit by a bullet, time dusk; I was in the same Company and not far off when it happened. I saw him dead, Painter and others were buried where they fell. Painters rifle was stuck up over his grave, know nothing of his disc, papers or anything else. We were holding on. Description; About 25, red hair, clean shaven about 5 ft 6. Parents I believe live in England. Eyewitness statement taken from Cpl Anderson. At Ville St Ancre in front of there in a bit of a cemetery he was buried, I was present at funeral, small cross put up there. Eyewitness statement taken from Dowling, B Coy 25th Battalion. He was in D Coy. Were at Morlancourt, 10th June, and doing a hop over, when I saw him killed instantly by a piece of shell. I helped to dig a grave and we buried him there in a sunken road. A cross with full particulars was erected. He was 24-25 years old, 5 ft 8 9 in height, 12 stone, and ginger complexion. Eyewitness statement taken from Capt Foxton, 25th Battalion. It was currently reported in the Battalion that Painter was killed by machine gun fire about 8.0 pm whilst rushing a machine gun during attack on the date above. It was about 100 yards to the right of the Bray Corbie road, near Morlancourt. Lieut Kirk of the 25th Battalion buried him and would be able to point out the exact position of the grave (Capt Foxton was blinded so could not show the position himself). Death was instantaneous. Eyewitness statement taken from Lieut Kirk. I saw him killed on the 10th June 1918. He was killed by machine gun bullet during an attack on the right of Morlancourt. He was buried the same evening where he fell not in a cemetery. The grave was marked in the usual way. Death / Burial / Memorial details. Killed in action aged 26 on the 10th June 1918. Australian archives record his burial as being near Morlancourt, details record that he was buried at 62D K.19665.00 by D.B.O 2nd Australian Division. Albert has no known grave, remembered on VILLERS-BRETONNEUX Memorial, France. Albert is also named on Swindons Roll of Honour. 13/07/1918 The Queenslander newspaper reports Alberts death in its Roll of Honour list No 414. 12/01/1919 Letter from Thirza painter to Vera Deakon. She writes of receiving letters from a lad in Alberts platoon as well as Capt Foxton. She also writes in regard to tracing his grave as she has read in the papers about the bodies being moved (Battlefield clearance and burial details) 11/10/1923 Alberts mother Thirza wrote a letter to the Australian Red Cross. She was enquiring as to whether the Red Cross could supply details for a burial site and if possible a photo of the plot. Unfortunately like so many others Albert lies somewhere in France without a known burial site. Evidence for inclusion on the Purton Parish list: Service record (Australian). Alberts name was originally missing from the CWGC online listing; this has now been highlighted and rectified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardess Posted 6 April , 2011 Share Posted 6 April , 2011 Just to show that the ref is 62D K.19.b.65.00 Link to Service file Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 7 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2011 Thanks Diane Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cubin Posted 7 April , 2011 Share Posted 7 April , 2011 Well done Diane, spot on. Bob here's a map curtesy of Linesman which shows that location in relation to Morlancourt. The road running east-west 500 yards north of the site is the road from Bray to Corbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 7 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2011 Diane thanks for spotting my obviouse mistake & John many thanks for the image. This location is another that i wish to visit later this year. Many thanks again Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardess Posted 7 April , 2011 Share Posted 7 April , 2011 It's a pleasure Bob. I'm pleased you have a map [and don't be too hard on yourself as you probably lifted the info from the typewritten sheet which was incorrect!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 7 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2011 Diane your to kind ... really i should pay more attention. I see from google earth that there is a cemetery at the top of the "sunken road". Can anyone confirm which CWGC plot this is? Being so close to his burial one is tempted to think he may lie under an "unknown" headstone maybe after the battlefield recovery teams had been through the area? Best regards Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cubin Posted 7 April , 2011 Share Posted 7 April , 2011 Diane your to kind ... really i should pay more attention. I see from google earth that there is a cemetery at the top of the "sunken road". Can anyone confirm which CWGC plot this is? Being so close to his burial one is tempted to think he may lie under an "unknown" headstone maybe after the battlefield recovery teams had been through the area? Best regards Bob Bob that's Beacon Cemetery. Just had a quick squint on CWGC and on the first two pages of Cemetery Reports, there are 5 men of the 25th Bn AIF killed 10/6/18. Suggest you go through the whole lot and see if any have the additional info of D Company. Even if not, you could still ask CWGC if any of them had a previous burial site. There's a chance (just) that they'll come up with K.19.b.65.00. Wouldn't that be something? Good luck, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 7 April , 2011 Share Posted 7 April , 2011 And please keep us posted about your findings (if any). I just love this kind of detective-work! Good luck, Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 7 April , 2011 Share Posted 7 April , 2011 Yes, there are a goodly number of Summer 1918 Australians in Beacon Cemetery - and a large number of unknowns. He may well rest there. However, it would appear he was buried with comrades "in a bit of a cemetery". This fact may well have resulted in his remains being found but perhaps he will always be part of a small group of Aussie comrades - and perhaps this is a fate that he would have welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 7 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2011 Any developements will be posted no fear. I have contacted the CWGC and know from past experiance that a reply will be some weeks away, i also go into this expecting a similar reply to my previous lines of enquiry....but you never know. CWGC listings for the site mention many lads identified that died on the same day, a few of which have the extra details of B & C company. Thanks to all Best regards Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cubin Posted 8 April , 2011 Share Posted 8 April , 2011 Bob, all of the 1:20,000 trench maps show a break in the sunken road. However, this 1:40,000 map shows clearly that the road runs through K.19.b.65.00. Map courtesy (spelled correctly this time) of Linesman. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 8 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2011 John many thanks for your time & help, i now wait for a response from CWGC. Best regards Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st AIF Posted 9 April , 2011 Share Posted 9 April , 2011 On a lazy Saturday I felt attracted to this mystery. The battalion objective was K19d 30.20 to K13d 7.2 I have placed the jump off line, objective, burial ref, and likely place of death to the best of my ability, which might not be much. The 25th Bn history says of D Coy "Lt Bedsors platoon was caught in no mans land by machine gun fire from the flank and lost heavily" The witness who stated he was killed 100 yards from the Bray Road was probably correct as this was D company's left boundary. Beacon Cemetery wasn't begun begun until August 1918 so the "bit of a cemetery", wouldn't have been that but could have been the collection of men killed that day of which the 25th Bn had 43 killed, and buried behind the front line. There is a possibility these men are still there in unmarked/lost graves. The burials were effectively done in the front line and the battalion were relieved four days later so the idea of a formal cemetery is highly unlikely. If they weren't brought in after the war as "unidentified" then they are still there somewhere. Normally reburials were recorded on their service history but there is none on Albert's record. Personally I would have thought the men in his platoon would have been buried pretty well where they attacked and buried behind the front line, not carried 400-500 yards further down the front line. Who knows. RIP. Len Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cubin Posted 9 April , 2011 Share Posted 9 April , 2011 On a lazy Saturday I felt attracted to this mystery. The battalion objective was K19d 30.20 to K13d 7.2 I have placed the jump off line, objective, burial ref, and likely place of death to the best of my ability, which might not be much. The 25th Bn history says of D Coy "Lt Bedsors platoon was caught in no mans land by machine gun fire from the flank and lost heavily" The witness who stated he was killed 100 yards from the Bray Road was probably correct as this was D company's left boundary. Beacon Cemetery wasn't begun begun until August 1918 so the "bit of a cemetery", wouldn't have been that but could have been the collection of men killed that day of which the 25th Bn had 43 killed, and buried behind the front line. There is a possibility these men are still there in unmarked/lost graves. The burials were effectively done in the front line and the battalion were relieved four days later so the idea of a formal cemetery is highly unlikely. If they weren't brought in after the war as "unidentified" then they are still there somewhere. Normally reburials were recorded on their service history but there is none on Albert's record. Personally I would have thought the men in his platoon would have been buried pretty well where they attacked and buried behind the front line, not carried 400-500 yards further down the front line. Who knows. RIP. Len That's good work, Len. I do believe you can actually see the line of Cummins Trench? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 9 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2011 Len Many thanks for your time in posting your image & thoughts. What did we do before the internet, you can even Google earth the spot & look temptingly down the sunken road. How spoilt we are now to be able to communicate so freely with like minded people across the globe. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st AIF Posted 9 April , 2011 Share Posted 9 April , 2011 Hi Bob @ John, Thanks, It is fun doing this stuff and yes Google Earth is the ants pants. I never cease to be amazed that these non-descript French paddocks hold so much history and that thousands of men advanced a few hundred metres through machine gun and artillery fire. Almost a hundred years later we can drive along them in a few seconds and would never know their history unless we look deep. Len Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 11 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Spent a few hours spent over the weekend looking through the archives. From the CWGC Beacon list i found a few lads who were D Coy after x-ref with the Red cross files in the Australian archives. None of the witness statements described specificaly a sunken road etc but there was mention of burial where he fell / behind our line etc. Two of the lads are mentioned as buried in Beacon Cemetery as well in the statements. From there i have started to look through the Australian Service documents for the lads (Starting with the D Coy lads)but no similar mention of a previous burial, indeed both are listed as burials within Beacon. For one of the lads i have searched for so far there is a letter stateing a photo etc of the burial at Beacon, it states that the photo shows the memorial cross with his name AND OTHER SOLDIERS on it who fell there. Unfortunately there wasn`t a copy of the photo within his documents. The search continues to find any others who were buried with Albert who now lie in a marked grave whether it be Beacon or elsewhere. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 17 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 17 April , 2011 For interest i have posted below an image from a body density map sent by a kind forum member http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showuser=14342 Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 18 April , 2011 Share Posted 18 April , 2011 I find these body density maps absolutely chilling - like some ghastly game of sudoku with no maximum that the numbers are constrained to adhere to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bts1970 Posted 19 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 19 April , 2011 Reply recieved from CWGC Dear Mr Lloyd, Thank you for your e-mail of 7 April 2011, concerning the details we hold on Sergeant Albert Painter, who is commemorated on the Villers-Brettoneux Memorial, France. Information on the one and three quarter million Commonwealth First and Second World War casualties listed in our records was passed to us by the Service Authorities of the countries concerned, after both wars. In this particular instance, the Australian Authorities would have told us that it was not possible to locate his grave, and this is why we record his name on the Villers-Bretonneux Memorial, France. His entry on our database and internet site, http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1454024 show that the Australian Authorities also gave us contact details for his next-of-kin, Richard and Thirza Painter. We then wrote to them, explaining that we had been informed he had no known grave, and asking them to confirm the details we would hold on their son. As our records are held alphabetically by surname and initials, and we would not be able to check the map reference you have given, in your e-mail. However, you might like to further your enquiries in Australia, as they may be able to provide further details. Their contact details are given below: First World War Personnel Records Service Australian Archives PO Box 7425 Canberra Mail Centre ACT 2610 Australia Any member of the public can obtain a copy of a First World War service record; only medical information is withheld from release. A copy of a dossier can be obtained for a charge of $15, forwarded with a Dossier Request Form; if a record is not located the $15 will be returned. To obtain copy of Dossier Request Form, write to: World War I Personnel Records Service Australian Archives PO Box 7425 Canberra Mail Centre ACT 2610 AUSTRALIA I hope my e-mail has been helpful, in explaining how our records are held, and where they came from. Kind regards, Jackie Jackie Withers (Mrs) Enquiries Administrator Enquiries Section Head Office Commonwealth War Graves Commission 2 Marlow Road Maidenhead Berkshire England SL6 7DX Tel: +44 (0) 1628 507200 E-mail: casualty.enq@cwgc.org Office hours: Monday to Thursday 08:30 - 17:00 Friday: 08:30 - 16:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now