WW1 Pilot

[centurion]

43 Squadron spent all of seven weeks on Snipes in combat--I am fully aware that oxygen equipment was fitted on Snipes ex works, but this is the very last weeks of the war, and hardly representative----and you mention "by the end of the war..." for 55 Squadron.

I did say they were operating special high altitude DH4/9a aircraft by the end of the war - I also mentioned that they had been pioneering oxygen on DH4s. These were used on normal bombing missions. I know you are trying to support a view but don't be selective.

[david lee]

"43 Squadron also began using oxygen equipped Snipes in action in France. There were complaints that the oxygen bottles were of too small a capacity."

Please don't tell me how to respond to statements.

'Selective' is in the eye of the beholder----I consider seven weeks on Snipes out of the war in the air 1914-1918 to be very selective indeed.

I am saying----and the authors I have quoted, one of whom was 'in it' agree, that 'oxygen' was not used ----at least in any meaningful and successful way operationally---until so near the end that it's use (like Lancasters sinking the Tirpitz) was incidental to just about anything., and the use of it sparingly for seven weeks in 43 squadron is (for scouts) probably the exception that proves the rule, as it was not---to my knowledge ever used by Dolphins which came on line in March 1918---but was, sparingly, on Snipes no earlier than Sept. 23rd. 1918.

Late war indeed.

[centurion]

"43 Squadron also began using oxygen equipped Snipes in action in France. There were complaints that the oxygen bottles were of too small a capacity."

Please don't tell me how to respond to statements.

'Selective' is in the eye of the beholder----I consider seven weeks on Snipes out of the war in the air 1914-1918 to be very selective indeed.

I am saying----and the authors I have quoted, one of whom was 'in it' agree, that 'oxygen' was not used ----at least in any meaningful and successful way operationally---until so near the end that it's use (like Lancasters sinking the Tirpitz) was incidental to just about anything., and the use of it sparingly for seven weeks in 43 squadron is (for scouts) probably the exception that proves the rule, as it was not---to my knowledge ever used by Dolphins which came on line in March 1918---but was, sparingly, on Snipes no earlier than Sept. 23rd. 1918.

Late war indeed.

Selective means ignoring the evidence of 55 Squadron and only quoting the bits that you want. Oxygen was used by the RFC/RAF. Now it may not have been wide spread but the original issue was was it used? Yes it was.

[nils d]

See Tich Rochfords book I CHOOSE THE SKY for his account of testing oxygen on a Camel

lve not seen a photo of a German mask , just the well known pic of a Gotha gunner sucking on a tube

[david lee]

Post 4--Quote....

"Whilst I think you're probably right about the Germans (see my post preceeding yours) British use of masks is earlier than you suggest, a Captain Hucks being reported in Flight in June 1917 as giving a talk about the 'current' use of both heated suits and oxygen masks "

Whilst I sense your transverse crest nodding, and your Vitis hovering, I deny 'selectivity'---any more than your own mention of 43 squadron.

I never ever said it was'nt used-----indeed my first post mentioned its use as outlined in 'Independant Force'----but that it was not used successfully to any great extent until the very atypical last minutes of a long war seems redolent of it's failure in that war as far as matters operationally.

[centurion]

Read

A Brief History of US Military Aviation Oxygen Breathing Systems by Christopher T. Carey

In this he states that the British originally adopted the Siebe Gorman built system (designed by Haldane) but found it unsatisfactory. The Dreyer system was then adopted after a joint British/French study and put into production by the De Lestang Company in Paris in 1917. Because production was slow in France and demand was not being met by the end of 1917 it was decided to mass produce in the USA in 1918 using the the A.C. Clark Company. Improvements were made to the design (for example a microphone was included in the mask) and the modified design was known as the Clark Dreyer System. Before the war ended some 3,000 sets of the ‘Clark-Dreyer System’ regulators and masks had been delivered to American AEF squadrons in France. One assumes that the British and French were getting theirs from De Lestang.

[david lee]

See Tich Rochfords book I CHOOSE THE SKY for his account of testing oxygen on a Camel

lve not seen a photo of a German mask , just the well known pic of a Gotha gunner sucking on a tube

Hi Nils d,

I have 'Titch Rochfords book first edition 1977---can you please offer me a page no.----and your use of the word 'testing' seems to validate what I am claiming.

As a for instance---on page 172 of 'Camel King Of Combat' by Chaz. Bowyer there is a 'testing' of the guardian Angel parachute in a Camel by Oliver Stewart dated 18/10/18----testing, yes---used operationally---no. Not even in mid October.

Cheers,

Dave.

[centurion]

Hi Nils d,

I have 'Titch Rochfords book first edition 1977---can you please offer me a page no.----and your use of the word 'testing' seems to validate what I am claiming.

As a for instance---on page 172 of 'Camel King Of Combat' by Chaz. Bowyer there is a 'testing' of the guardian Angel parachute in a Camel by Oliver Stewart dated 18/10/18----testing, yes---used operationally---no. Not even in mid October.

Cheers,

Dave.

What have parachutes got to do with it? Anyway see post 31

[david lee]

What have parachutes got to do with it? Anyway see post 31

It illustrates my contention perfectly----'testing' (as Nils said) --trials, limited use with patchy success rate---whether Oxygen or anything else including, as an analogy, parachutes, is somewhat different from use in 1917 and 1918 as a bald statement of 'fact'.

Assertions---or your 'assumptions' (I might well ask what Americans have to do with it---with about as much relevancy as you asking what 'parachutes' have to do with it) are one thing---but facts are altogether a horse of a different colour.

[centurion]

It illustrates my contention perfectly----'testing' (as Nils said) --trials, limited use with patchy success rate---whether Oxygen or anything else including, as an analogy, parachutes, is somewhat different from use in 1917 and 1918 as a bald statement of 'fact'.

Assertions---or your 'assumptions' (I might well ask what Americans have to do with it---with about as much relevancy as you asking what 'parachutes' have to do with it) are one thing---but facts are altogether a horse of a different colour.

I think you need to cool down

[david lee]

You thinking that is simply yet another of your "assumptions" though---is it not.

We are debating here and I am responding to your assertions, mostly with statements that have not been refuted.

"When the Armistice was finally signed, fewer than 3000 sets of the 'Clark-Dreyer System' regulators and masks had been delivered to American AEF squadrons in France. By the time the war had ended for all combatants, oxygen had been permanently accepted as a necessary part of the life support equipment required by pilots to successfully fly and fight at altitude. Ultimately, however, historical research has seemingly demonstrated that few American combat aircraft flown in the war actually had been equipped with oxygen systems by war's end.

As Glenn Sweeting has stated in his superb book, COMBAT FLYING EQUIPMENT, the problem of providing adequate oxygen breathing systems for military aviators in the First World War simply was too great for the amount of time available to devise a suitable system: "…it simply challenged the state of the art and came up short."

As a final note on First World War military oxygen breathing systems, it should be remarked that the systems devised in that extraordinarily compressed early "learning curve period" were not completely adequate, being given to failure and prone to faulty operation, which not infrequently resulted in a loss of both machines and men when the systems failed at higher than normal altitude. Had the war continued on into 1919 and beyond, there is little doubt that improvements would have resulted in far better systems reliability that existed at war's end."

Ah, "at wars end"

[centurion]

Just checked “The Aircraft Cockpit” L.F.E Coombes. It seems that oxygen was not regarded as important for the o/400 (or even the V1500s) as their operating ceiling was intended to be no higher than 10,000 ft (as night bombers there was less need to get above the German fighters) so that it was not specified in the design or indeed provided, (which is why there is no reference to it being used on these aircraft). However the day bombers were operating at over 15,000 ft and “some of these were were equipped with oxygen as well as an electrical supply for heated clothing”. According to Coombes all aircraft operating above 15,000ft would have had it had the war continued. This explains why 55 squadron was using it.

[david lee]

Just checked "The Aircraft Cockpit" L.F.E Coombes. It seems that oxygen was not regarded as important for the o/400 (or even the V1500s) as their operating ceiling was intended to be no higher than 10,000 ft (as night bombers there was less need to get above the German fighters) so that it was not specified in the design or indeed provided, (which is why there is no reference to it being used on these aircraft). However the day bombers were operating at over 15,000 ft and "some of these were were equipped with oxygen as well as an electrical supply for heated clothing". According to Coombes all aircraft operating above 15,000ft would have had it had the war continued. This explains why 55 squadron was using it.

"had the war continued"

[david lee]

Hi Nils,

I have found it---page 101-- 'I Chose The Sky'

"During the evenening of 17th. July I took my new Camel, B3807, up to 22,000 feet which was the greatest height I had ever reached. I was testing a new oxygen supply apparatus, a cylinder containing the oxygen and a tube leading from it and attached to a mask which could be clamped over the mouth when desired................it was unfortunate that the apparatus was heavy and clumsy to carry around in a small fighter aeroplane and I do not recall it being put into service in any of our fighter squadrons before the end of the war"

Again, I claim testing is one thing---operational use in 1917 or most of 1918 quite another---

Cheers,

Dave.

[centurion]

Compressor used by RAF 1918 for filling oxygen cylinders for aircraft.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q208/antarmike/mobileoxygenplant.jpg

"Nowadays, of course, aviators are provided with oxygen for inhalation when they find it necessary to employ it." Flight 28th Feb 1918

[david lee]

"Hi,

I may stand corrected but I believe the Germans used Oxygen first for high flying crews. The British use of it was confined I believe to the Independant Air Force bomber crews, who did not have much success with it, often resorting to just breathing oxygen through a tube coming from the canister---see 'Independant Force' by Keith Rennles (page 9)

Cheers,

Dave."

The above is my first post on this--post 3-----just to remind us that I never said it was'nt ever used. indeed the IAF started operations in June 1918----- and 55 Squadron was its most experienced unit, and June 1918 is not exactly the 'end of the war' but they did not exactly have much success with it either---------which is what I claimed then, and do now.

From June until the wars end Oxygen seems not to have figured very heavily in any reminiscences, autobiographies or unit histories that I have come across (though I certainly do not claim to have perused them all---but I have an extensive library built up over many, many years)---at least as an operational commonplace.

'Flight' claimed many things..

[Dolphin]

There certainly was thought given to fitting oxygen tanks to Dolphins, and this is in Norman Franks' Dolphin and Snipe Aces of World War I:

"Pilots in No 87 Sqn, mindful of the thin air above 20000 feet, experimented with the use of an oxygen supply tank for themselves. However, when a tank was fixed just behind the seat of a wrecked Dolphin and a few Lewis rounds fired into it, the resultant explosion quickly ended that idea! As Dolphin pilot Sir Leslie Hollinghurst once told me, 'We had enough problems without worrying about having our heads blown off by some Hun hitting our oxygen tank'."

Gareth

[phil.c]

Fantastic - i've been trying to research the use of oxygen masks but aside from the only surviving photograph of the DH4 crew type and a plan held by the RAF museum there appears to be nothing until this new photograph posted by Phil today. The photograph shows a Siebe Gorman oxygen mask being put on a DH4 crew member (likely the Observer) of 27 Squadron, and there's references to it made by 55 Squadron in their squadron history, and also in the book 'Bomber Pilot' by CPO Bartlett

Both images are copyright RAF Museum

I haven't read of any problems with the oxygen equipment, could someone write this up? I'd also be interested in seeing any images and further information regarding the Dreyer designed mask, especially the introduction date (I also have plans for a later type oxygen mask, more skimpy looking, with inter-communication equipment for use by the Handley Page V/1500 crews)

Here`s another photo for Robl`s research. Sent this lot down to RAF Hendon museum for them to have a look at.

[centurion]

As Dolphin pilot Sir Leslie Hollinghurst once told me, 'We had enough problems without worrying about having our heads blown off by some Hun hitting our oxygen tank'."

Indeed as I mentioned in an earlier post there was some reluctance on the part of aircrew to take up oxygen, the possible effect of a bullet on the tank was one reason. Another problem with adopting it with single seat fighters was the size of tank. As I mentioned earlier the issue was the relatively low pressure cylinders, this limited the capacity unless you had a bulky tank. The steel with which modern cylinders are made is to very high specifications and cylinders are only made in a limited number of places (I used to work for British Oxygen once). The steel used in the WW1 period was not up to modern standards. The Germans initially solved this problem by using liquid oxygen but the coldness of the gas that sublimated off this was such that air crew suffered from sore and even burnt throats and lungs. The initial British answer was to use a common tank for bomber aircrew to share and the initial tanks fitted to Dh4s were of this type. However with the adoption of the Dreyer system by the British, French and Americans individual tanks were again used but mainly in day bombers.

[RobL]

Thanks Phil, very much appreciated - if you have any other information or photographs i'd love to see them. If you don't get a reply from Hendon, let me know as i'll get in touch with someone down there who definitely would be interested in seeing them.

If I get the time later i'll write up all the DH4 references I have to the oxygen supply and what I have on the siebe-gorman masks

[centurion]

Here`s another photo for Robl`s research. Sent this lot down to RAF Hendon museum for them to have a look at.

I suspect, given the individual cylinder, that this may be the Dreyer system

[david lee]

All of those photos. look like trial installations to me. Trials and tests are one thing---successful operational use is quite another, and as Dolphin rightly says "there was thought to fitting tanks to Dolphins..." thought only! That the one aeroplane that one would have thought would have been a natural for its use was not so fitted speaks volumes for the atypical images of set - ups purporting to be in regular use.

I have never doubted from my first post in this thread that it was trialled, with varying degrees of success. I have never doubted that it was 'pioneered' by 55 squadron---the most experienced unit in the IAF by inception iinto combat in June '18----but one thing is true of 'pioneers', whether reaching out to discover new lands by sea, setting out in huge wagon trains heading West across trackless plains in America, or attempting to 'break' the sound barrier in early jets----and all 'pioneers' before, during and after--- the huge 'learning curve' will claim lives, and have failures, especially so when the technology is lagging behind the urge---or, in the case of war, the neccessity----one need only look at the late WW2 jets---both Meteor and 262----failures in metals and fuels meant disasters--or very lucky escapes. Yes, jets are commonplace now----as is oxygen, but it weren't so then.

I also wonder----though I don't know, just how many gulps of oxygen a Snipe pilot (say)would have managed from a small 'personal' tank in the cockpit-----before it ran out?

Oxygen in WW1 is about as atypical as parachutes.

RIP the doomed Donner party 1846, and the equally doomed Francher party out of Fort Smith 1857---"pioneers" indeed.

RIP Geoffrey DeHavilland---another "pioneer"

"Pioneering" is a dangerous game I think.

Dave.

[centurion]

In his letters back to South Africa Lt Frederick Charles Wilton, DFC a Dh9 pilot with 98 Squadron mentions that the squadrons Dh9s were frequently fitted with oxygen to allow them to get above 18,000 feet and away from the German fighters. This was before May 1918. So it definitely wasn't just the Dh4s being fitted.

[david lee]

"We got into a dogfight this morning with new brand of Fokkers and they certainly were good......there were five of us and we ran into five Fokkers at 15,000 feet. we both started climbing of course---and they outclimbed us. We climbed to 20,500 feet and couldn't get any higher. We were practically stalled and these Fokkers went right over our heads....."

J. M. Grider----85 Squadron.

Were there no German fighters operating at 18,000 feet then? My first post in this thread makes it quite clear that I don't doubt it was being used -----by the IAF without much success----and that is June '18, and the IAF comprised more than just one squadron, and I don't doubt others outside the IAF were experiencing just as much frustration with the imperfect set-up, for such it was.

[fitzee]

Was it lack of oxygen that was refered to as "altitude sickness"?

Fitzee