WW1 Pilot

[phil.c]

Have picked up some documents relating to a Lt then Captain Gerald William Riley who joined the7th oxford bucks then the RFC during WW1 . States in a news paper clipping that he invented the oxygen mask but cannot find anyone to confirm this. I do have a few photographs showing the apparatus but even the RAF Hendon museum have no records of this. Any ideas?

[centurion]

The Germans with their high flying photo recce aircraft , Zeppelins and heavy bombers appear to have been the fist major users of oxygen in flight - initially using breathing tubes and then masks. There are a number of photos showing this. I would suspect that the German masks were invented independently of British efforts. Is it possible to post scans of the photos you have?

[david lee]

Hi,

I may stand corrected but I believe the Germans used Oxygen first for high flying crews. The British use of it was confined I believe to the Independant Air Force bomber crews, who did not have much success with it, often resorting to just breathing oxygen through a tube coming from the canister---see 'Independant Force' by Keith Rennles (page 9)

Cheers,

Dave.

[centurion]

Hi,

I may stand corrected but I believe the Germans used Oxygen first for high flying crews. The British use of it was confined I believe to the Independant Air Force bomber crews, who did not have much success with it, often resorting to just breathing oxygen through a tube coming from the canister---see 'Independant Force' by Keith Rennles (page 9)

Cheers,

Dave.

Whilst I think you're probably right about the Germans (see my post preceeding yours) British use of masks is earlier than you suggest, a Captain Hucks being reported in Flight in June 1917 as giving a talk about the 'current' use of both heated suits and oxygen masks

[phil.c]

Will post a pic as soon as i can work it out, keeps saying file to big

[centurion]

Will post a pic as soon as i can work it out, keeps saying file to big

Try using this free service

http://www.resize2mail.com/

You need to reduce the file to under 100Kb and convert it to Jpg if it isn't already in that format

[phil.c]

Did it at last, thanks

[centurion]

Thanks

The modified Strange mount visible on the BE2 in the background suggests the photo was taken in 1916

[centurion]

Britain, Germany and America all introduced oxygen masks in 1917. British masks were first fitted to some DH4s and appear to have been a design developed by J.S. Haldane and manufactured by the British subsidiary of Siebe Gormon. They were bulky (relying on a large relatively low pressure cylinder) and not too reliable. There were a number of other designs. They were replaced by a design from Lt Col.Dreyer RFC - these had a regulator that adjusted to atmospheric pressure. The German masks were developed by the firm of Draeger, the masks were rubber and the equipment was first used on airships. In America development took place, by an odd coincidence, at Fort Riley. The Americans do not appear to have used masks to any extent until post war. What the French were doing remains a mystery (twas ever thus).

There appears to have been a reluctance on the part of some aircrew to use the equipment - it was bulky, uncomfortable, unreliable and the weight of the cylinder (in the case of the DH4 mounted underneath the fuselage) could compromise performance.

I think that at best we can say that Riley invented an oxygen mask, given the apparent date of the photo possibly one of (or even the first) of the British masks (but more work is needed on this) but the Germans would have been developing them independently and so we cannot say (at least not yet) that it was the first mask of all.

[david lee]

Whilst I think you're probably right about the Germans (see my post preceeding yours) British use of masks is earlier than you suggest, a Captain Hucks being reported in Flight in June 1917 as giving a talk about the 'current' use of both heated suits and oxygen masks

I obviously type much slower than you do. I do not believe it was used operationally in 1916 or 1917---having never read of it during those years, and tend to edge towards Rennles assessment that the masks in 1918 failed so often that bomber crews resorted to simple tubes.

Dolphin pilots make no mention of oxygen, (thouugh Dolphins experimented with parachutes and self sealing tanks so it should certainly have been feasible) and they were arguably the highest regular allied flyers----McCudden would surely have at least attempted a 'trial' as he stalked so many at high altitude in his S.E.----all of which would lead one to imagine that 'trials' were (or should have been) ongoing, and operational use was fraught with failures.

Just my feelings

[centurion]

I obviously type much slower than you do. I do not believe it was used operationally in 1916 or 1917---having never read of it during those years, and tend to edge towards Rennles assessment that the masks in 1918 failed so often that bomber crews resorted to simple tubes

which would lead one to imagine that 'trials' were (or should have been) ongoing.

I seem to have out typed you again - see my last post

[phil.c]

I seem to have out typed you again - see my last post

wow some interesting stuff. I have medical reports in which he states he was shot down in sept 1916 and had returned to duty on or before oct 1917. A newspaper clipping states he was transferred to inventive staff at Brooklands.

[susanhemmings]

The man himself

[phil.c]

fantastic! where did you get photo from.

Phil

[susanhemmings]

couldnt manage to post reply just now, so sent a PM to you Phil.

Welcome by the way

Susan

[NigelS]

...and appear to have been a design developed by J.S. Haldane...

His elder brother, Robert Burdon Haldane, is better known in military circles for the 'Haldane Reforms' which he implemented in the years leading up to WW1, but J.S. (John Scott) is probably just as well known in scientific ones as a - if not the - leading authority and researcher on physiology, particularly that of breathing, of the day. His obituary in The Times Click and this site Click give some indication of his influence on the real 'Health & Safety' issues and precautions necessary for working at high altitude, in the ocean depths and below ground, as well as the medical treatment for those who had the misfortune to become a victim of these conditions. (for those with access, his entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is also an interesting read)

NigelS

[RobL]

Fantastic - i've been trying to research the use of oxygen masks but aside from the only surviving photograph of the DH4 crew type and a plan held by the RAF museum there appears to be nothing until this new photograph posted by Phil today. The photograph shows a Siebe Gorman oxygen mask being put on a DH4 crew member (likely the Observer) of 27 Squadron, and there's references to it made by 55 Squadron in their squadron history, and also in the book 'Bomber Pilot' by CPO Bartlett

Both images are copyright RAF Museum

I haven't read of any problems with the oxygen equipment, could someone write this up? I'd also be interested in seeing any images and further information regarding the Dreyer designed mask, especially the introduction date (I also have plans for a later type oxygen mask, more skimpy looking, with inter-communication equipment for use by the Handley Page V/1500 crews)

[centurion]

I know that a company that make repro WW1 kit has produced a WW1 British oxygen mask (but which model I don't know) as well as a Sidcot suit.

Haldane developed his mask after a report on hypoxia by a man named Birley which had led to some brilliant simulations of high altitude conditions by Captain Martin Flack (an appropriate name for wartime aviator) who developed some re breathing equipment which I think became the basis for the Davis submarine escape gear. The problem was the regulator which couldn't always deliver the right amount of oxygen and required constant manual adjustment. The Dreyer mask had a regulator that automatically adjusted to barometric pressure.

The dates of Riley's crash and return to duty together with the photo combine to suggest that his mask was developed in 1916 before Birley's report. One wonders why - the BE2c could hardly be described as an high altitude aircraft. He must have been one of those natural inventors and one wonders if he produced anything after the war.

[RobL]

Centurion, which company has done the oxygen mask? A friend of mine was going to reproduce one, having already done Tanker's masks and leather helmets, as my attempts to get another reproduction company to make them fell through

[centurion]

Centurion, which company has done the oxygen mask? A friend of mine was going to reproduce one, having already done Tanker's masks and leather helmets, as my attempts to get another reproduction company to make them fell through

It may be your friend. The following was on LivingHistory.co.uk a reenactment site

RFC/RNAS/RAF Oxygen Masks and Sidcot suits

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RFC/RNAS/RAF Oxygen Masks and Sidcot suits

by 7thLeicesters » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:31 pm

Reproduction RFC/RNAS/RAF Aero Oxygen Mask Mk 1 will be available soon - they were used by day bomber crews from 1917 onwards (DH4, DH9, DH9A etc), and possibly by other aircrew - is anyone interested?

The reproductions will consist of the mask and the tubing which ran to an oxygen cylinder mounted underneath the aircraft - I don't have any information on the cylinder and it would be a large piece of equipment, so it will just be a hose (but of sufficient length to be will hidden inside a Sidcot suit/other flight clothing). Speaking of Sidcots, i'm currently gathering together people/organisations wanting them to get a sizeable batch made - again, let me know if interested

And I notice that the poster has the same avatar as you do.

[RobL]

Ah, yes that's me that posted - was referring to the original planned producer, however they are still planned to be made, and the Sidcots are available from another source

[david lee]

Quote--

"When flying at heights above 16,000 ft. it was advisable to use oxygen as altitude was maintained for considerable periods, two and a half to three hours. Observers especially became unable to carry out their duties. Many photographic recconaissances were aborted due to the breakdown of the oxygen supply. The oxygen provided failed so regularly that most pilots and observers simply took oxygen cylinders into their cockpits, and absorbed the gas as they thought fit direct from the cylinder through rubber tubing."

'Independant Force' Keith Rennles

I have Bartlett's 'Bomber Pilot 1916-18' but apart from the same photo as above (between pages 136 and 137) captioned "Testing a simple oxygen apparatus for a DH4 observer, in this case from 27 Squadron RFC at Serny, Feb. 17th. 1918" I recollect no mention of oxygen being used by 205 squadron in it-----though it is a long time since I read it......

Again, I offer this quote from Sholto Douglas in 'Years Of Combat' (page 218)

" Although I was all for new methods of attack, I found that pushing the Lewis gun back into the fixed position when flying in the open cockpit of the SE5 at high altitude called for an effort that was almost superhuman. We had no oxygen supply in those days, and I found my strength at height fell off very considerably.....others had the same experience, and more often than not we had to dive down to a lower altitude before we could reload"

I rather feel that the imagined operational use----with any real success attached to it, of oxygen by British pilots and observers, is just that---imagined. Though I do not doubt it was trialled, and used via the simple expedient of avoiding the regulator and mask and just taking it from small cylinders in the cockpit through a rubber tube------sometimes.

High flying scout pilots like Dolphins---or the above Sholto Douglas---or my earlier mentioned McCudden would surely have been the very major benificiaries of any workable oxygen supply...

And would have mentioned it.

Dave.

[centurion]

55 Squadron pioneered the use of oxygen in Dh4s. This is recorded in various histories of the squadron. By the end of the war they were also flying some DH4/9a hybrids as high altitude recce aircraft. These were fitted with oxygen and masks.

43 Squadron also began using oxygen equipped Snipes in action in France. There were complaints that the oxygen bottles were of too small a capacity.

[centurion]

More on George Dreyer (1873–1934)

He was a graduate (1900) of the Copenhagen medical school and was a recognised bacteriologist and virologist. During WW1 he was a consultant to the RFC and in this position carried out the mahority of research into high altitude flying carried out in the UK. His oxygen system was also adopted by the U S Army by the end of the war. He became professor of pathology at Oxford and advised the early Everest expeditions in the use of portable oxygen sets.

[david lee]

55 Squadron pioneered the use of oxygen in Dh4s. This is recorded in various histories of the squadron. By the end of the war they were also flying some DH4/9a hybrids as high altitude recce aircraft. These were fitted with oxygen and masks.

43 Squadron also began using oxygen equipped Snipes in action in France. There were complaints that the oxygen bottles were of too small a capacity.

43 Squadron spent all of seven weeks on Snipes in combat--I am fully aware that oxygen equipment was fitted on Snipes ex works, but this is the very last weeks of the war, and hardly representative----and you mention "by the end of the war..." for 55 Squadron.

'By the end of the war' lots of things were coming to fruition-----self sealing fuel tanks, Sutton harness for pilots as opposed to lap straps and parachutes very close indeed spring to mind----but one can in no way claim these things were being used operationally with success in 1917 ---or indeed, most of 1918.

I do not say oxygen wasn't tried, but I do say it was not conspicuous by its success rate----- and to consider seven weeks for a scout squadron, even one like 43 which admittedly did a lot of recce. escort in those last few weeks, as indicative of some level of reasonable parameter of success is a tad wishful I think.