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Remembered Today:

Thomas C. GORNALL - Manchesters?


stephen p nunn

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Evening all. I am confused and could do with some help. Today Mrs. Maldon and I visited a local antiques fair. I am always on the look out for GW stuff and saw a lone Victory Medal. I was going to walk away but Mrs. Maldon made me buy it - £15. When we got home I looked the chap up on a certain family history website. I found his MIC OK. The medal reads:

4798 Pte. T.C. Gornall Manch. R.

So I thought that's interesting - a private in the Manchesters. His MIC reads:

Thomas C. Gornall. Manch R Pte 4798 and Lab Corps 132111. He was entitled to the pair and got a SWB List L.C./544.

I couldn't find a service or pension record for him under the Manchesters but located a pension record against his name and Labour Corps service number 132111. The papers in this file are fascinating but there is no mention of the Manchesters. It says the following:

Thomas Catherall Gornall (husband of Sarah Ellen Gornall of The Lodge, Basin Lane, Wigan)

Born June 1891

Enlisted 3/3/1916

Joined 1/5th Battalion King's Liverpool Regiment on 4/3/1916

Posted to 1/8th (Irish) Battalion The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 5/3/1916

With BEF 6/8/1916

At Etaples 15/8/1916

Posted to 362 Employ Coy 15/8/1916

Back with 1/8 King's Liverpool Regiment 9/9/1916

To XV Corps TM School 22/9/1916

Hospital 29/9/1916

1/10/16 - whilst at 21st Training School at Corbie(?) France, suffered shell shock and disordered action of heart as a result of a trench mortar shell exploding before time.

31/10/16(?) at 8 Gen Hosp Rouen

Home 24/10/1916

Left 25/2/17

Before a medical Board 14/12/17 - no longer fit for war service so discharged.

My confusion is around no mention of the Manchesters, instead KLR. Is this really the same man do you think or has the MIC and pension record somehow got muddled?

Thanks all.

SPN

Maldon

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Hello Maldon,

The Labour Corps transfer date doesn't look right?

Looking in "No Labour No Battle" ....

The LC number 132111 was part of the batch allotted to 1 Labour Battalion, formed from 23rd Battalion Liverpool Regiment (May 1917).

362 Reserve Employment Company was formed Autumn 1917.

No doubt Ivor will correct it, if I've made a pig's ear of it.

Phil

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Phil's quite right about the date - the only thing I would add is that 362 was a UK based Company not an overseas one.

Ivor

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Phil's quite right about the date - the only thing I would add is that 362 was a UK based Company not an overseas one.

Ivor

Thanks chaps - does the following revised chronology make more sense then? I am still really confused about the Manchesters v KLR v Labour Corps references?

Thomas Catherall Gornall (husband of Sarah Ellen Gornall of The Lodge, Basin Lane, Wigan)

Born June 1891

Enlisted 3/3/1916

Home service starts 4/3/1916

Joined 1/5th Battalion King's Liverpool Regiment on 5/3/1916

With BEF 6/8/1916

Posted to 1/8th (Irish) Battalion The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 15/8/1916

At Etaples 15/8/1916

With 1/8 KLR from 9/9/1916

To XV Corps TM School 22/9/1916

To Hospital 29/9/1916

1/10/1916 whilst at 21st Training School at Corbie(?) (or Rouen?) France, suffered shell shock and disordered action of heart following trench mortar shell exploding before time

18/10/1916 to ambulance train

"Home Service"(?) from 24/10/1916

At 8 Gen Hosp 31/10/1916

Posted to 362 Employ Coy 28/2/1917

Left 25/2/17

Before a medical Board 14/12/17 - no longer fit for war service so discharged.

Thanks.

SPN

Maldon

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I've just had a quick look at his service record and my feeling is that the MIC is wrong, in so far as his Manchester Reg service was home only and the KLR service has been omitted. Unfortunately I can't read the vital line on Image 11486.

I'll have a better look when I have time (got to go out).

Phil

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I've just had a quick look at his service record and my feeling is that the MIC is wrong, in so far as his Manchester Reg service was home only and the KLR service has been omitted. Unfortunately I can't read the vital line on Image 11486.

I'll have a better look when I have time (got to go out).

Phil

Thanks Phil. So he could have started off in the Manchesters befor going to the KLR's? I couldn't see that in the pension record for 11486? Thanks for your guidance with this one. Look forward to your further views.

Best regards.

SPN

Maldon

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I think the line at the top of page 11486 reads "5 [Res] Manchester [5] Reg", which has been crossed out. Maybe his MIC was never updated. But then, they also seem to have put his first name as "James" before crossing that out too.

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That's how I read it, Louise, although looking at LLT, 3/5 Manchesters were not officially designated 5th Reserve Btn until a month after he joined.

Due to the line I can't read, I'm still not sure if he landed in France as Manchester, or KLR on 4/8/16. Transferred has been crossed out in favour of Posted. The stamp is definitely KLR and it's dated from 4/8/16.

By 5/8/16 he is in Etaples, presumably 24 Infantry Base Depot, as on 15/8/16 he is To the Front to join 8th KLR.

9/9/16 he is Transferred to 1/8 KLR, In the Field.

Is it significant that he is not Transferred to the KLR until that date?

To XV Corps Trench Mortar School on 16/9/16

Rejoined Battalion 25/9/16, which I think is a technicality, as it is the day he was admitted to hospital. (4th London Field Ambulance?)

29/9/16 to 21 CCS where he remained until embarking on Ambulance Train on 2/10/16, arriving at 8 Gen Hosp, Rouen, the following day. He remained there until being evacuated to UK on the Hospital Ship Carisbrooke Castle on 21/10/16.

I'll sort out my notes on his return to the UK in another post later.

Phil

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Thanks both. So is it now looking like this?:

Thomas Catherall Gornall (husband of Sarah Ellen Gornall of The Lodge, Basin Lane, Wigan)

Born June 1891

Enlisted 3/3/1916

With "5 [Res] Manchester [5] Reg"?

Home service starts 4/3/1916

4/8/16 Landed in France

5/8/16 he is in Etaples, presumably 24 Infantry Base Depot,

Posted to 1/8th (Irish) Battalion The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 15/8/1916

At Etaples 15/8/1916

With 1/8 KLR from 9/9/1916 in the field

To XV Corps Trench Mortar School 16/9/1916

(Whilst at 21st Training School at Corbie(?) (or Rouen?) France, suffered shell shock and disordered action of heart following trench mortar shell exploding before time

To (4th London Field Ambulance?) Hospital 25/9/1916

29/9/16 to 21 CCS

Embarked on Ambulance Train on 2/10/16

3/10/16 arrived at 8 Gen Hosp, Rouen.

Evacuated to UK on the Hospital Ship Carisbrooke Castle on 21/10/16.

"Home Service"(?) from 24/10/1916

Posted to 362 Employ Coy 28/2/1917

Before a medical Board 14/12/17 - no longer fit for war service so discharged.

Thanks for your on-going help.

SPN

Maldon

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Oddly Maldon, going back to page 11484, (for those who can't view it) it states:-

KLR 1/5 Posted Pte 5.3.16

" 1/8 " " 15.8.16

So it would appear he was KLR from the start - I suspect the reference to the Manchesters was crossed out as almost soon as it was entered.

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It's definitely confusing.

A quick look at a few other MICs seems to confirm that 6418, being renumbered as 308373 is consistent with 8th King's, 1916 following into 1917. Therefore, where and when was the 4798 number issued? 1/5 King's were already overseas.

It may be worth a seperate post, with Manchester's in the title, to pick up one of their experts, to see if a bit of number crunching confirms, or refutes, that he was originally with them, or whether a recruiting officer was a bit over-zealous and filled a few forms out in advance.

As far as his return to the UK goes, Image 11489 appears to have the narrative, if you can de-cipher it. This is the Medical Board Report of 16th July 1917.

Picking it up from about half way down........

"Was sent to Rouen No.8 General. 3 weeks later was transferred to Eastleigh. Was 6 days there and transferred to 2nd Western General. Was under treatment until 8th Feb 1917. The (?) Board at Whitworth St (?) (?) (?) Ciii B179. Rejoined unit, was with them (?) days, then transferred to Seaforth Barracks (?) Depot. (?) (?) (?) to Prescot Labour Battalion, 9th March 1917."

As I read it, he was posted on the strength of the Depot, on hospitalisation in the UK. Being medically down-graded, he was posted to 23rd (Works) Battalion on 9th March 1917. This became 1st Labour Battalion on formation of the Labour Corps. The report was made at Oswestry on 16th July 1917. Oswestry was the base for 362 Reserve Employment Company, so I am assuming that he was posted to them, possibly on formation, very close to this time. He remained with 362 Company, until his discharge, which formally took place in December, but was going through the motions for some months prior.

Phil

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Thanks again both. So here is the latest:

Thomas Catherall Gornall (husband of Sarah Ellen Gornall of The Lodge, Basin Lane, Wigan)

Born June 1891

Enlisted 3/3/1916

With "5 [Res] Manchester [5] Reg"? (but reference to the Manchesters was crossed out as almost soon as it was entered?)

Home service starts 4/3/1916

5/3/16 – Posted as Private to The King’s (Liverpool Regiment)

4/8/16 – Landed in France

5/8/16 he is in Etaples, presumably 24 Infantry Base Depot,

Posted to 1/8th (Irish) Battalion The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 15/8/1916

At Etaples 15/8/1916

With 1/8 KLR from 9/9/1916 in the field

To XV Corps Trench Mortar School 16/9/1916

(Whilst at 21st Training School at Corbie(?) (or Rouen?) France, suffered shell shock and disordered action of heart following trench mortar shell exploding before time

To (4th London Field Ambulance?) Hospital 25/9/1916

29/9/16 to 21 CCS

Embarked on Ambulance Train on 2/10/16

3/10/16 – arrived at 8 Gen Hosp, Rouen.

Evacuated to UK on the Hospital Ship Carisbrooke Castle on 21/10/16.

"Home Service"(?) from 24/10/1916

Posted to 362 Employ Coy 28/2/1917

16/7/17 – Medical Board Report (made at Oswestry – the base for 362 Reserve Employment Company) states: "...was sent to Rouen No.8 General. 3 weeks later was transferred to Eastleigh. Was 6 days there and transferred to 2nd Western General. Was under treatment until 8th Feb 1917. The (?) Board at Whitworth St (?) (?) (?) Ciii B179. Rejoined unit, was with them (?) days, then transferred to Seaforth Barracks (?) Depot. (?) (?) (?) to Prescot Labour Battalion (i.e. 23rd Works Battalion which became the 1st Labour Battalion), 9th March 1917."

Before a medical Board 14/12/17 - no longer fit for war service so discharged.

I'll try the Manchesters post idea.

Best regards.

SPN

Maldon

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Just added some family details (how sad):

Thomas Catterall Gornall (husband of Sarah Ellen Gornall (nee Barnes – 1889-1920) of The Lodge, Basin Lane, Wigan)

Born June 1891 in Haigh, Lancashire. Son of Henry Gornall (b.1862) and Ann Catterall (b.1862).

1916 – married at Christ Church, Millgate, Wigan, Lancashire.

Enlisted 3/3/1916

With "5 [Res] Manchester [5] Reg"? (but reference to the Manchesters was crossed out as almost soon as it was entered?)

Home service starts 4/3/1916

5/3/16 – Posted as Private to The King’s (Liverpool Regiment)

4/8/16 – Landed in France

5/8/16 he is in Etaples, presumably 24 Infantry Base Depot,

Posted to 1/8th (Irish) Battalion The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 15/8/1916

At Etaples 15/8/1916

With 1/8 KLR from 9/9/1916 in the field

To XV Corps Trench Mortar School 16/9/1916

(Whilst at 21st Training School at Corbie(?) (or Rouen?) France, suffered shell shock and disordered action of heart following trench mortar shell exploding before time

To (4th London Field Ambulance?) Hospital 25/9/1916

29/9/16 to 21 CCS

Embarked on Ambulance Train on 2/10/16

3/10/16 – arrived at 8 Gen Hosp, Rouen.

Evacuated to UK on the Hospital Ship Carisbrooke Castle on 21/10/16.

"Home Service"(?) from 24/10/1916

Posted to 362 Employ Coy 28/2/1917

16/7/17 – Medical Board Report (made at Oswestry – the base for 362 Reserve Employment Company) states: "...was sent to Rouen No.8 General. 3 weeks later was transferred to Eastleigh. Was 6 days there and transferred to 2nd Western General. Was under treatment until 8th Feb 1917. The (?) Board at Whitworth St (?) (?) (?) Ciii B179. Rejoined unit, was with them (?) days, then transferred to Seaforth Barracks (?) Depot. (?) (?) (?) to Prescot Labour Battalion (i.e. 23rd Works Battalion which became the 1st Labour Battalion), 9th March 1917."

Before a medical Board 14/12/17 - no longer fit for war service so discharged.

1918- Daughter, Annie Gornall born.

1920 – Wife dies in childbirth (son, Joseph, also dies).

1939 – Daughter, Annie, dies.

Died in 1968 in Wigan, Lancashire.

Regards.

SPN

Maldon

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Hello Maldon,

One slight correction needed, I've noticed.

28/2/17 would have been about the time he was put on the strength of the Depot / to Seaforth Barracks.

He would not have been posted to 362 Company until his final weeks of service. In fact, looking at my older notes, not until some time after the July Medical Board, as it was not formed until the Autumn. Western Command Labour Centre was also based at Oswestry and the report possibly came under their auspices.

Phil

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Maldon,

I'm becoming more convinced that he originally enlisted with one of the Third Line TF Battalions of the Manchester Regiment, on the eve of conscription. The lack of Attestation Sheet hasn't helped.

If you can, take a look at the service (not pension) record of Walter Fletcher, 4792 Manchester Regiment and of 24 Rutland St, Failsworth. The dates are slightly different and he joined 3/10th Bn, but he also passed through 24 IBD and was transferred to 1/8 King's.

Unlike your man though, his MIC starts with his King's service number, 6110.

Phil

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Lovely - thanks Phil. Here is the latest then. (I also have a thread on the Manchesters to see if that brings forth any further information):

Thomas Catterall Gornall (husband of Sarah Ellen Gornall (nee Barnes 1889-1920) of The Lodge, Basin Lane, Wigan)

Born June 1891 in Haigh, Lancashire. Son of Henry Gornall (b.1862) and Ann Catterall (b.1862).

1916 married at Christ Church, Millgate, Wigan, Lancashire.

Enlisted 3/3/1916

(He possibly originally enlisted with one of the Third Line TF Battalions of the Manchester Regiment, on the eve of conscription - "5 [Res] Manchester [5] Reg"? - but that reference to the Manchesters was crossed out as almost soon as it was entered?)

Home service starts 4/3/1916

5/3/16 Posted as Private to The King's (Liverpool Regiment)

4/8/16 Landed in France

5/8/16 he is in Etaples, presumably 24 Infantry Base Depot,

Posted to 1/8th (Irish) Battalion The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 15/8/1916

At Etaples 15/8/1916

With 1/8 KLR from 9/9/1916 in the field

To XV Corps Trench Mortar School 16/9/1916

(Whilst at 21st Training School at Corbie(?) (or Rouen?) France, suffered shell shock and disordered action of heart following trench mortar shell exploding before time

To (4th London Field Ambulance?) Hospital 25/9/1916

29/9/16 to 21 CCS

Embarked on Ambulance Train on 2/10/16

3/10/16 arrived at 8 Gen Hosp, Rouen.

Evacuated to UK on the Hospital Ship Carisbrooke Castle on 21/10/16.

"Home Service"(?) from 24/10/1916

Put on the strength of the Depot/to Seaforth Barracks - 28/2/1917

16/7/17 Medical Board Report (made at Oswestry the base of Western Command Labour Centre) states: "...was sent to Rouen No.8 General. 3 weeks later was transferred to Eastleigh. Was 6 days there and transferred to 2nd Western General. Was under treatment until 8th Feb 1917. The (?) Board at Whitworth St (?) (?) (?) Ciii B179. Rejoined unit, was with them (?) days, then transferred to Seaforth Barracks (?) Depot. (?) (?) (?) to Prescot Labour Battalion (i.e. 23rd Works Battalion which became the 1st Labour Battalion), 9th March 1917."

(?) posted to 362 Employ Company for his final weeks of service. (Company formed in the Autumn of 1917).

Before a medical Board 14/12/17 - no longer fit for war service so discharged.

1918- Daughter, Annie Gornall born.

1920 Wife dies in childbirth (son, Joseph, also dies).

1939 Daughter, Annie, dies.

Died in 1968 in Wigan, Lancashire.

Best regards.

SPN

Maldon

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  • 4 years later...

Hi,

I've just posted a new thread on James Thomas Saunders who died in a field near Corbie in July 1918. Strangely his brother Ernest married an Amy Gornall (my grandparents) I appreciate it doesn't take you any further forward but I feel I needed to mention it.

Regards

Chris

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Hi,

I've just posted a new thread on James Thomas Saunders who died in a field near Corbie in July 1918. Strangely his brother Ernest married an Amy Gornall (my grandparents) I appreciate it doesn't take you any further forward but I feel I needed to mention it.

Regards

Chris

Thanks Chris. Do you know the family connection?

Regards.

SPN

Maldon.

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