Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Thiepval Wood latest


Guest Desmond6

Recommended Posts

A few points - as I see them.

1 Courage is independent of the motive that inspires it. Respect the sacrifice of all brave soldiers. I don't agree with the political systems that set up the Waffen SS or the Red Army - but I respect the courage and self sacrifice of the individuals.

2 "Ulster" historically is made up of more than 6 counties - the present province is a political stitch up - as are most "nations".

3 All nations have their issues about history. E.G. The Republic of Ireland still needs to recognise the hundreds of thousands of Irishmen of all communities who laid down their lives for what they believed to be their country and their beliefs - however unfashionable some of those beliefs have become. It has taken the UK years to set up a memorial for the black and asian soldiers who died for the Raj - but not as long as it seems to have taken the Indian Goverment!

I don't do sectarian stuff, but saw far too much of it from all quarters during 3 tours of NI during the 70's and 80's. Atrocities are unpleasant to clear up, no matter who commits them.

Let's live and let live and keep anything that excludes from our remembrance on the basis of race or religion firmly OUT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris - while I am happy to see you agree with me that no-one should be excluded or frowned upon because of their race or religion, I do find it a little unsettling to find the Waffen SS cropping up in the thread about the Ulster Division!

Best wishes Des

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Des

Just picking 2 ideological extremes - Fascist / Communist and hoping to show that compared to the collective & individual courage involved, the politics is not a thing that should concern us aspeople dedicated to remembrance.

Anyway, compared to some of the things that went on in Ulster from both sides of the divide, SS is not too far off the mark!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sticking to the WW1 context so I'll simply stay clear of that one!

Des

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very wise mate!

I did notice that at the Ulster Tower. There is a nice exhibition that fully integrates 36 (Ulster) Div with the other Irish Divisions. At least that's the impression I got. Having said that, there were a couple of entries in the Tower Visitor's book when I visited recently which could be construed as representative of the views of just one community - and that's a shame.

Have you ever seen the play "Behold the sons of Ulster, marching toward the Somme"?

Beautiful

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris - the willingness to give due acknowledgement to the bravery and sacrifice of the 16th and 10th Divisions has always been to the credit of those in Northern Ireland who responsibly perpetuate the Ulster Division's history.

Even before I began my 'serious' WW1 research I was aware of these two divisions, largely due to the work of bodies such as Somme Heritage Centre etc.

As to the comments, I think the honest answer to that is .... 'because of history, the Ulster Tower is a 'one-sided' Memorial to a very 'one-sided' unit!'

I've never seen 'Observe the Sons' .... one man who did see it and was well versed in the Somme etc. said it was a tribute to political correctness.

Des

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now that is very interesting!

I think that if you have a regionally based unit you will have regional attitudes. The problem is the peculiarities of the Irish situation prior to 1914. You may be able to educate me further, but are there those today who are so mean spirited at Thiepval as to not recognise the sacrifices of other Irish formations?

I don't just speak about Orangemen - if that is applicable, but I find myself interested in the citizens of what became the "Irish Free State". How did their Goverment treat their sacrifice? And indeed those who true to their own principles, fought against partition?

As to the play, well, beauty is as to the eye of the beholder as Shakespeare said.

Interesting sidenote. Many I spoke to in the years 77 - 83 said to me "I'm Irish- I'm just different to the others".

C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the braveryof the 'other Irish formations' is much better known and appreciated and remembered by those who would have links to the 36th Division than by those who would have ancestral links to the 16th and 10th. I'm not being flippant when I say that - it's just the way that they were taught about history. To them the efforts of the 36th were/are a matter of great communal pride. By extension, they were also aware of the efforts of the other Divisions.

As for the 'Free State' - in the immediate post-independence period there was a determined attempt to wipe away the memory of the 10th and 16th Divisions. This continued for many, many years until in recent times people have rediscovered their links to these rightly famous formations and have started to take an interest in them.

I think that's wonderful. Long may it continue. If you have time - and the patience! Try wading through some of my earlier answers ... I think they would cover many of your points.

There was a thread about the Irish Republic and Memorials not so long ago. Maybe someone can post a link?

Des

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry - been away for a few days hence the out of step reply to Des7 above... Firstly, I am not an expert on Irish politics per se but the reference quoted above refers to the experienced soldiers who returned home and whose martial skills found a use in both the civil war and continuing troubles on both sides.

The info on the UDF/UVF was very interesting but its still important to point out that the political sentiments of many of the 36th division (Ulster = British not Irish, the Boyne etc.) are those shared by the organisations who have hijacked their memory today. However, I agree with the point that people (a) associate the UVF of today with the UVF of yesterday and that (B) people hear 'U anything F' and assume its extreme Irish politics.

Good points well made - but I maintain that its a shame that the non-UVF members of the 36th are continuing to be over shadowed by a bunch of sectarian thugs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote McDerms - Good points well made - but I maintain that its a shame that the non-UVF members of the 36th are continuing to be over shadowed by a bunch of sectarian thugs. Unquote McDerms

Here's what I say - I find it shameful that any member of the 36th Ulster Division - whether they belonged to the ORIGINAL Ulster Volunteer Force or not - are being 'overshadowed by a bunch of sectarian thugs.'

I assume that was what you meant to say. As far as I can tell, my grandfather was a member of the UVF in 1912 ... along with his employer, his minister, his MP and half the retired officers of the British army. They can be labelled sectarian because, as I have stated before, politics and sectarianism went hand in hand in those days. You had the pro-British camp hoping to avert Home Rule and the Nationalist Camp hoping to achieve Home Rule. I dojn't have to paint a picture of which religion went with which!

I have yet to see any documentation which depicts UVF 'thuggery' in the period prior to WW1. Both the Irish National Volunteers and the Ulster Volunteers attracted their members from all classes in Ireland.

PS Calling the present day UVF a bunch of Sectarian thugs is a sweeping generalisation and very easy to do when you are not living and working in Northern Ireland.

For a fact, a great many of them are sectarian thugs. No argument. No sympathy. Happy to see people who commit crimes go to jail for the sentence imposed. Wish they were not part of society. However, as someone who has studied Irish politics and particularly Northern Irish politics for many years, I would point out that there are some - a very few - who have played a major part in the political process since the Belfast Agreement. I belive it is only fair and accurate to make that statement. It should not be construed as support for the organisation or its policies. All clear on that one.

However, the present day paramilitaries and their role in modern Irish society is not for this Forum. I apologise if anyone feels I have over-stepped the mark.

Can I end with this thought - Everyone needs to feel a sense of belonging, a sense of history, sacrifice and achievement. It is only when those senses overwhlem reason that difficulties arise. For one side to belittle the history, sacrifices and achievements of another side is the road to hatred.

Perhaps it is best to end this thread, which has gone on long enough by stating:

I am here to obtain information on and exchange information about the 1st World War. I remember the sacrifices made by soldiers of all nations, but, because I am a 'local researcher', I especially remember the men from my home town, the men of Co. Antrim, the men of Ireland.

Regards Des

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... (snip) ...

Good points well made - but I maintain that its a shame that the non-UVF members of the 36th are continuing to be over shadowed by a bunch of sectarian thugs.

This is a good point. What many people in NI don't understand is that this is how it comes over to the outside world. And outside NI it has very few takers. It's a big turn-off to people inside and outside Ireland who might be otherwise persuaded to take an active interest in memory. That's why it is a problem for us.

The 36th Division was not like any other unit in the British Army. It was not only regional; it was sectarian, exclusive and inward looking. This is not a judgment on its fighting qualities or the personal courage of those who enlisted; it's a social and cultural question. Someone earlier made a comparison with the Tyneside Irish. IThe 36th was nothing like the TI who recruited anyone they get their hands on (including 30 muslims) and from all over northern england. It was open, outward-looking and inclusive. One should not be too suprised if today the TI is held in greater public affection. These things are connected ... .

It's a shame, too, to see some of the more blatantly sectarian commemoration celebrations at the Ulster Tower on July 1 are publicised in the latest edition of the WFA bulletin. Yet the WFA purports to be 'non-political'. What on earth do they understand by that term?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And of course the Tyneside Irish were 'turned down' by the 16th (Irish) Division which was formed largely from the Irish National Volunteers. Which, it could be argued was, in large measure, equally sectarian, exclusive and inward looking.

This is not a judgment on ITS fighting qualities or the personal courage of those who enlisted; it's a social and cultural question.

Looking at it from here in Northern Ireland of course. :D

I fully agree with Hedley on this point. The Tyneside Irish do not figure in this debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... (snip) ...

Good points well made - but I maintain that its a shame that the non-UVF members of the 36th are continuing to be over shadowed by a bunch of sectarian thugs.

This is a good point. What many people in NI don't understand is that this is how it comes over to the outside world. And outside NI it has very few takers. It's a big turn-off to people inside and outside Ireland who might be otherwise persuaded to take an active interest in memory. That's why it is a problem for us.

The 36th Division was not like any other unit in the British Army. It was not only regional; it was sectarian, exclusive and inward looking. This is not a judgment on its fighting qualities or the personal courage of those who enlisted; it's a social and cultural question. Someone earlier made a comparison with the Tyneside Irish. IThe 36th was nothing like the TI who recruited anyone they get their hands on (including 30 muslims) and from all over northern england. It was open, outward-looking and inclusive. One should not be too suprised if today the TI is held in greater public affection. These things are connected ... .

It's a shame, too, to see some of the more blatantly sectarian commemoration celebrations at the Ulster Tower on July 1 are publicised in the latest edition of the WFA bulletin. Yet the WFA purports to be 'non-political'. What on earth do they understand by that term?

Absolutely right! The problem is that every time we see an Orange flag, we think of Johnny Adair and the like who ARE thugs and DO hijack events like 1/7/16 for their own ends. I know that there are lots of people in NI who don't try and use ancient history to rile up sectarian dissent and violence - but the ones who make it to the TV do. Say NI, Orange or Protestant to the man in the street and he'll say U/V/D/XXX/F, Ian Paisley and Johnny A. Similary if you say Ireland you'll get IRA, Gerry Adams and one of the many bombimg Bham (or any other) bombing.

Apologies if I caused any offence but the only way to make a memorial to any Div, Regt etc. etc. essentially 'fair' is to make it strictly apoltical and non-secular at least until 'orange' is a reformed symbol in the public mind. Remember that it's only recently that flying a St Georges cross stopped meaning you were a skinhead, so maybe in ten years? the Orange banners will be seen as a sign of community etc. OUTSIDE of NI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They were good enough to fight .. good enough to die. But not, it seems, good enough to be remembered with respect.

That's the end of the story for me.

To the everlasting memory of the men from this island who volunteered for and served with the 36th (Ulster) Division. To the equally important memory of those who served alongside the Ulster Division and of those who were later posted to it.

Edited by Desmond7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...