Thiepval Wood latest

[Guest Desmond6]

Follow link below for Thiepval wood update

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/13499

[spike10764]

Hope this happens- for all concerned

[burlington]

So do I.

A confession- for all the times I have been to the Somme, I have not yet visited the wood, though of course I have been past it.

Will rectify in September.

[Desmond7]

Forum members - I have just returned from my home town's 1st July Commemoration. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, it is an event organised by theRBL and features a military band. It is not an 'Orange' ceremony.

Obviously it remembers the 36th Ulster Division whose exploits on that day. in my humble opinion are unknown to many in the present-day United Kingdom.

I have seen many programmes on the Somme. Few, aside from the 'Line of Fire' series on Discovery, have even mentioned the part played by the Ulster Division on that day.

On this side of the pond, people generally know of the pals battalions from Sheffield, The Tyneside Irish/Scottish etc. Yet Ulster's role is largely ignored or blatantly wiped out from the history slate. Tonight, I have seen the descendants of men who lost their lives on the Somme bow their heads, sing two hymns and go home with pride.

Who shall separate us.

Des

[Chris Noble]

and remember the 49th (West Riding Division) who tried HARD to support the 36th, i hope, not forgotten.

Victims of a very effective 'Box Barrage'.

Chris.

[Desmond7]

Well said, the men of the 49th Divisuion advanced into a fire trap which was horrendous.

And, to their credit, they KNEW the whole thing had gone pear-shaped. Despite that they did their job and will be remembered for that with pride.

Those few who got to the Shwaben reinforced the men of the 36th and I believe one particularly brave sergeant rescued quite a few Ulstermen from No-Man's land.

Mark - Q.S.

[Hedley Malloch]

Cheers for that 'Des'...I went to the sevice on the Shankill today and it was very moving...I was going to post this fact but after the Hedley Malloch Post: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 00:33:51 +0000 I thought that I couldn't share my pride with the group.....now I find that sad!

Q.S.

Mark in Belfast

I would love to debate this with you in this Forum, but we're not allowed to. We can discuss the collection of death plaques, the correct way to put on puttees and similar items, but not the politicisation of memory - especially the symbolic role of the Ulster Tower in modern Ulster politics, still less its possible negative effects on the memory of the thousands of Southern Irishmen who died in WW1.

Incidentally, I cannot possibly agree with Desmond7's contention that history has wiped clean the slate of the memory of the sacrifice of the Ulster's sacrifices on 1 July 1 1916. I don't know which books you've been reading or the videos you've been watching, but it's well covered in all of mine.

[ianw]

I must agree that the fantastic exploits of the Ulster Division on 1st July are rightly among the most famous of the Great War. Laying all politics aside, they will never be forgotten since they prove what determined men can achieve against all the odds.

[Desmond7]

Oh Hedley ... if people interested in the First World War had not heard of the Ulster Division I would have been gobsmacked.

You will note in my post that I said 'people generally' - I was not referring to the users of this forum who, being interested in the Great War, are obviously well aware of the Ulster Division's role on July 1 etc.

And if they're not, maybe this post will point them in the right direction. That's one good thing!

However, I have watched many hours of documentaries on Discovery. UK History etc. I've tuned into BBC and ITV, C4 and even C5 pogrammes on the 1st WW.

Only ONE programme has featured the 36th on July 1 at any length. It is of course the 'Line of Fire' programme on the July 1 attack.

Care to name a few more which have been shown on mainstream TV or satellite?

Don't mean to fall out and won't ... but I have the feelng you know exactly what I mean. Forgive us for our pride .. and as for the Ulster Tower, I've read your views and appreciate your antipathy to the Orange Order memorial.

I'm not an Orangeman - but I've keyed in enough obituaries from 1914-18 to know that a lot of them died and 99% of them volunteered for it. You may not agree with their attitudes, but you surely would not deny their right to have a memorial?

I cannot for the life of me see what the Ulster Tower's negative effects on the memory of Southern Irishmen are or have been. The truth is that the negative attitudes of the Southern Irish towards the British military and those who served in it have zero to do with the Ulster Tower or the Ulster Division. These were forged long before July 1.

Northern Nationalist attitudes .. most certainly I can see how these would have been influenced because of the very nature of this little corner of the island. But 'down south' - no chance. Ulstermen fought on the Somme and then built a memorial which commemorates their willingness to fight for 'their' Crown and 'their' Empire. And if they did expect some loyalty in return ... is that surprising? or wrong? They were not fighting for Belgium or anything else, they fought because they wanted to be part of that Empire.

Best wishes - Des

[Guest]

Half of me is Northern Irish. I think I know something of Irish history and the place which the Ulster Tower holds in iconography.

Believe me, my personal outlook is not tinged with sectarianism in any way and I honour the memory of all Irishmen who fell in the war. But, the tower does hold a special place in the hearts of all who remember the achievements and the sacrifice of the Ulster division with pride, as will the wood when this new project takes off.

It is only when pride in one sacrifice leads to others being belittled that there is a problem.

[Guest Desmond6]

And with a few short paragraphs and her parting thought, Angie has summed up my feelings too.

Des

[Hedley Malloch]

Don't mean to fall out and won't ... but I have the feelng you know exactly what I mean. Forgive us for our pride .. and as for the Ulster Tower, I've read your views and appreciate your antipathy to the Orange Order memorial.

I'm not an Orangeman - but I've keyed in enough obituaries from 1914-18 to know that a lot of them died and 99% of them volunteered for it. You may not agree with their attitudes, but you surely would not deny their right to have a memorial?

Des,

I have no objection to Ulstermen being remembered as Ulstermen who died during WW1. Far from it. It's a good idea and that's what we are here for. At that level I have no objection to the Ulster Tower and would fight to preserve it as I would any other regional war memorial on the Somme or elsewhere.

My objection is when the regional shades into the sectarian, when Ulster becomes Orange - specifically the little shrine at the back. Des, look at the problem another way. What would be the reaction if Bradford Labour Party said they would like their own memorial at the back of the Serre Road CWGC? Or if the NUM wanted a memorial to their members in Ovilliers CWGC? Or if the SNP or Plaid Cymru wanted their own memorials at Menin or Mametz Wood? There would be hell on - and quite right, too.

But that is precisely what has gone on at the Ulster Tower.

Also we are commited to memory and its perpetuation. There is therefore a problem of communicating to those people who do not remember. There is no doubt that the demonstrations which go on at Thiepval every 1 July turn off many people. They are seen as sectarian, exclusive rather than inclusive, tribal; bigoted - all the negatives which the outside world associates with Unionist politics in NI. It's an active turn-off for many. It is therefore anti-memory - that's why it needs to change.

Who knows why the blokes commemorated there died? Like many others in NI they may well have changed their minds since 1916. But there is a real sense in which today the ceremonies conscript them to support a cause they may well have opposed had they lived.

All this is quite apart from its effects on the memory of those from the 26 counties who fought and died ... . You don't have to take a view on Irish politics, past or present, to be concerned.

You made some other points, but I'll leave it there for now.

Regards

[Desmond7]

SNP,NUM.PC etc ....

Sorry - doesn't hold water.

Nobody would give two hoots.

Miners remembering their ancestors. Yes sir.

Welsh Nats remembering their fallen grandfathers. Perfectly acceptable.

The SNP - I'd be up there singing 'Flower of Scotland' with them.

[Desmond7]

I love this ideal. This is how these men saw themselves at the time. Sure they were Ulstermen and they were bigoted and they were poiltically motivated. I could say the same about the INV and the IRB.

How could they not be - they had irish history to influence them?

[Max]

Right on Dessie

[Guest Desmond6]

I am now off my soap-box.

Thanks to the Max Factor for services rendered.

Des

[Guest July1]

All,

I read the article on link above.......

I stopped after reading "the largest WW1 ATTRACTION on the Somme battlefield".

Should I continue to read it ?

It gave me a cold shiver and visions of Disneyland............

I hope it will not be too over-commercialised.

MG

[Hedley Malloch]

I love this ideal. This is how these men saw themselves at the time. Sure they were Ulstermen and they were bigoted and they were poiltically motivated. I could say the same about the INV and the IRB.

How could they not be - they had irish history to influence them?

I am fine with that Des. Totally agree. Just as long as we realise that the inevitable consequence is that their memory is similarly politically shaped. It follows, too, that acts of remembrance are political - that there is no such thing as non-political memory. The problems arise when we try and persuade people otherwise, or tell others that their remembrance is political, while ours is not - and therefore morally superior.

In my view what goes on at Thiepval every July 1 has less to do with 1916 and much more to do with 1690, and even more to do with 1998. It is highly political - that's the point. There is no such thing as non-political behaviour in NI. But if we are prepared to tolerate Thiepval, we must equally be prepared to put up with political behaviour we don't like, such as poetry readings at sites of memory and the linking of remembrance to peace movements. Live and let live.

Incidentally, Des, I think you are being disingenuous when you argue that there would be no protest at the linking of sites of memory to political parties or movements. There would be hell on - and quite right, too.

[Desmond7]

Hedley - you can 'tolerate' Thiepval as much as you want.

I'm proud of it.

Politics and memory? In the context of commemorating wars .. I fully accept they go hand in glove. And that's why Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders etc. see their sacrifices in WW1 as a defining moment in THEIR political history. They proved themselves on the BIG stage.

So did the men from the province of Ulster.

Their politics were simple, they wanted to remain British.

Their attitude towards religion was typical of the time in Ireland. It was bigoted. And no-one can compare Ireland with Britiain on this subject. Agreed?

Now it would be easy for me to walk away in a huff. But hey, this is the internet and this is a dicussion forum. So, I'm happy to discuss and debate.

Thiepval as much to do with 1690 as 1916? It would be foolish of me to deny that the 36th (Ulster) Division, with large numbers of Orangemen in its ranks did make that, to my mind, dubious connection. You and I know they did.

Did the men doing the fighting on that day regard their losses as a 'blood sacrifice' which would entitle them to undying loyalty from Westminster? Probably not, I reckon they thought it was a pretty awful thing and I am quite sure that King Billy was the last thing on their minds when they realised just how badly the battle was going.

Did future generations believe it to be a 'blood sacrifice'. In short, yes. Again it would be stupid of me to deny it. And it was obvious from the attitude of the contemporary British government that they regarded the loyalty of unionists in a similar vein. Thus they took the easy option with the much-reviled six county solution.

Do I regret the fact that modern generations have not 'moved on' from the attitudes held by these men in the first decade and a half of the 20th century? Of course I do. I am sure we can both agree on that?

Should I feel ashamed of the role played by past generations of Ulstermen in WW1 just because they were conditioned by their circumstances? Tell it to the Thompson boys. Read about them. They were all Ulstermen who believed in doing their duty. They are what the Ulster Tower represents to me. George was my grandfather.

Ballymena Observer, May 1915

43rd List - 1,082 Patriotic Men from the town and district are now serving their King and Country.

This week’s recruiting:- 18th Btn. Royal Irish Rifles - Hugh Wylie, Fair Hill Lane; Johnston McGaw, Fair Hill Lane; Wm. Lorimer, Alexander Street; Daniel Wisener, Lisnacrogher; Wm Lowery, Parkhead; Wm. McCarley, Moat Road; John McKay, Springwell Street; Samuel Allen, Fenagh. Royal Irish Rifles (Cadet Corps) Jack Crawford, Ashville, Ballymena.

Reservist: Cpl. R. McCosh, Kenbally (Reservist).

Joined since the outbreak of war - 15th Royal Irish Rifles - Pte. Adam Thompson, Galgorm Street; Seaforth Highlanders - Pte. William Thompson, Galgorm Street; Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders, Pte. Wilson Thompson, Galgorm Street; 18th Royal Irish Rifles, Pte George Thompson, Galgorm Street.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwone/ire..._wwone_02.shtml

Edited 11 July , 2004 by Desmond7

[Somme1916]

Talk about Irish memorials & politics! How about all those memorials, murals, plaques etc. that adorn many a place in Belfast (Protestants, Catholics NIB, IRA, Commandos etc etc etc.) How many reprisals for the reprisal, for the reprisal, for the reprisal, for the reprisal will/does it take to bring an end to the North/South issue in Ireland? The way I see it, things could be pretty damn nice on the Emerald Isle if the Irish could be a bit more of forgiving of the English and each other and get over it.

I mean come on, do the southern Irish still scare unruly children with threats that Oliver Cromwell will come get them if they don't behave? Bloody hell that was over 360 years ago. Don't forget but at least let it go.

I know some of you will say that as an American I don't understand the issue. Your wrong, I'm pretty well versed in World History and I think I have a pretty good feel for the many of the Irish issues. I know nothing I ever do or say will bring peace to Ireland but when is enough enough? The same holds true for the Middle East, Africa, the Balkans and so many other places? When is enough enough?

Food for thought: Speaking of such places as Africa, the Middle East and the Balkans isn't it poignant that so many of the worlds problems today are a direct result of the carving up of these areas by European powers just after the Great War?!

Jon

[Desmond7]

This is something I've stuck my forum neck out on ... and I'm not trying to be smart when I ask ... what's your point?

I've got nothing against the English/Scots/Welsh/irish whatever ..

My earliest point on this thread was that very few outside the WW1/history circle are even aware that there was an Ulster Division. After that views were exchanged pretty sensibly when the potential for explosion was there.

The murals in Belfast are contemporary and 'celebrate', 'commemorate' each side's own views. God help us .. in an atheistic way!

I say again that the Ulster Tower is a true memorial to men who were products of their times. Like those who applaud the gallantry of the confederate soldier I am proud of the Ulstermen who showed their bravery.

That does not mean that I subscribe to their ideals. But I will always stand up for their memory.

Having said all that .. and I admit sounding pretty hostile at times .. how did you rate the debate!

[mcderms]

Blimey talk about a hot topic! Firstly, anyone who claims knowledge of the Somme MUST know about the Ulster boys so let's bury that one for starters.

Secondly, it must be pretty obvious to everyone why the 36th get so little (good) press... Whatever the motivation behind these boys was in 1914, the organisations that they belonged to have subsequently evolved into terrorist groups that have fuelled the sectarian fires. Yes that's right I said TERRORISTS and by that I mean the lads who had/would carry arms for the UDF, UVF, Red Hand AND the IRA (it's not only catholics that fought for Irish independence and unity).

The involvment of the Orange clowns in any 36th memorial is inevitalble when you're discussing soldiers who went over the bags with banners, flags and crys remembering the battle of the Boyne! So lets all stop skipping around the real issues and accept the facts.

The real tragedy of all this nonsense is that WW1 seemed to unite the thousands of northern and southern Irish soldiers beyond politics to whit the tributes paid by protestants in the 36th to their catholic chaplain.

Time to grow up boys and girls. If you can divorce the 36th from politics then I'll be at the ceremony. If you would welcome a proud mongrel with English, Irish (South), Irish (North, French and French-North African blood to something very secular.

PS Bl00dy good debate Pals!

[paul guthrie]

Do some think referring to the Irish Peace Tower near Messines Paddy's Rocket offensive? Yes I ask this seriously, thanks.

[Desmond7]

People need to take a history lesson here .... the original UVF was disbanded in the aftermath of WW1.

McDerms - Let's read what I SAID before we 'bury' anything.

I will repeat myself - few, outside students of military history and 1st World War enthusiasts are even aware of the existence of an Ulster Division.

I took it for granted that anyone with an interest in the war and the Somme in particular would have at least heard of the Division.

But on your second point, you are right on target. There is a widespread MISCONCEPTION that the Ulster Volunteers of WW1 vintage somehow 'evolved' into the present day organisation which has been involved in truly awful terrorist activity.

The FACT is the original UVF was disbanded in 1922 when the state of Northern Ireland was formed. To be blunt, there wasn't much need for a UVF anymore when their primary object of retaining the British link had been achieved.

The present-day paramilitary organisation which has latched on to the UVF title was formed in 1966 - you will note the 50th anniversary of 1916. It was formed at that time because some extreme loyalists wrongly believed that the (then) official IRA were about to re-start a campaign in Northern Ireland.

The present day UVF would LOVE everyone to think that they are the natural successors to the original Ulster Volunteers. Anyone with even a cursory knowedge of Irish/Ulster history will acknowledge that such a claim is demonstrably false.

The original Ulster Volunteers of WW1 vintage drew membership from the highest ranks of society to the mill floor and farmyard. The original UVF enjoyed the unequivocal support of the entire pro-union population which was bitterly opposed to the pending imposition of 'Home Rule'.

The present day terror gangs enjoy minimal support and their membership is largely drawn from interface areas where sectarian conflict has been the norm since the industrial revolution.

McDerms Quote : "Yes that's right I said TERRORISTS and by that I mean the lads who had/would carry arms for the UDF, UVF, Red Hand AND the IRA (it's not only catholics that fought for Irish independence and unity). " Unquote McDerms

I am totally puzzled by this statement. It needs clarification.

On the Orange point ... I dare say many people who have never lived in Northern Ireland do view the Orange Order as a crowd of bowler hatted clowns. Perfectly understandable.

Anyone who wishes to understand more about the Orange Order can read volumes about what makes them tick. I'm not a member so I won't try and speak for them.

However, from the historical perspective, I can very easily prove that the Orange Order's members in Northern Ireland flocked to join the British army in 1914 and a great many died in action. Serious students of the period may also be interested to know that many, many thousands of Canadians who were members of the Orange Order in that country were equally quick to join.

Thus I think the Orange link to the Somme and the Ulster Tower is perfectly justifiable. You may not like it ... but surely the sacrifice of their members should not be ignored?

World War 1 did nothing to bridge the sectarian barrier in Ireland. Religion and politics were one and the same at that time. To a certain extent nothing has changed but before moderators jump in I am returning back to the historical context.

Certainly there were instances of comradeship and respect between the 16th Div. and the 36th Div. ... but I submit these were the exception rather than the rule. I think it is more accurate to paint a picture of toleration rather than fraternisation on a 'we can all be mates' scale.

Time to grow up ... yessir. But as for politics ... if you have read the information and opinions above you will know by now that your last request is an impossibility.

The original UVF were a prime example of Bismark's maxim about politics and war.

They were an armed force with a political agenda. When they were more or less formalised into a British Army formation it was a political decision. When they were given the right to the name Ulster, again it was a political decision. When it came to british policy in Ireland after WW1, their participation resulted in the six counties of Ulster being left out of the Independent 26 counties of the 'Free State'.

Thus the Ulster Tower will always be a Unionist symbol. It was meant to be from the day and hour it was constructed.

I do find it truly distasteful that the Ulster Tower - which, let us not forget, was approaching a state of dereliction not so many years ago - is being used as a focal point for modern day paramilitary gangs. I am bitterly opposed at their re-writing of history to make a claim to a place at that Tower.

People who perpetuate the myth that the UVF of 1914 and the UVF/UDA etc etc of today are one and the same are simply reinforcing that myth.

As I said, I've stuck my neck out on this issue. I live in Northern Ireland and I am readily identifiable. But there it is. You have to stand up.

Look at ALL the angles.

Regards to everyone Des - and yes I do think this is a worthwhile abd very well conducted debate. Even if I say so myself!!!

[Somme1916]

I agree this is probably the most civil and well-done debate about Irish politics and the Great War that I've ever seen.

A note on the memorials and monuments piece. I will confess that the Ulster Tower is my favorite Great War memorial/monument. In fact a picture of the Tower is the wallpaper for my computer screen.

Also I must add that I was very impressed and moved by what I saw first hand in Belfast, the murals made an especially lasting impression on me.

Once again the members of this forum have demonstrated that a simple tread topic can evolve into something more.

Cheers,

Jon