shippingsteel Posted 3 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2012 This is what happens when you dont keep an interest in check!! Part of a friends collection. Sean Be Warned... I wouldn't mind, but I remember one of you lot saying us Brodie boy's were obsessive! What's This I Hear.? Please do name names - that person shall be weeded out and dealt with accordingly (ie.extremely harsh discipline swiftly administered.!) Obviously not worthy of the name 'collector' as us individuals never allow those words to be spoken in our presence ... ahh, thats either 'obsession' or 'addiction' Apart from that, "Carry On" - all's fair between fellow collectors, but just remember there's a line drawn in the sand - and you'll be needing your 'tin-lids' if you cross it.!! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Have any of you visited http://k98.free.fr/? Check the photos.... To collect 109 bayonets of the same basic type (all K98k's, all neatly lined up for the photo's), well, that IS seriously intimidating! Trajan That is a serious collection. Im sure Freud would have something to say about it though Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 ... What's This I Hear... Apart from that, "Carry On" - all's fair between fellow collectors, but just remember there's a line drawn in the sand - and you'll be needing your 'tin-lids' if you cross it.!! Cheers, S>S With you all the way S>S. And did you check out that photo of the 109 K98's? Scrolling down after posting the link I saw that the collector who assembled those actually has more than that. Certainly an intimidating collector, but definately not an obsessive one... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Apart from that, "Carry On" - all's fair between fellow collectors, but just remember there's a line drawn in the sand - and you'll be needing your 'tin-lids' if you cross it.!! Cheers, S>S Sounds like a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors(or shall we say Bayonets) is in order, lets see what your pointy things can do for you then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 On a more serious note, I have a US Remington 1917 in pretty good order, apart from someone trying to shaprpen the edge at some point, and without a scabbard. What would this expect to fetch on the British market as I would love to replace it with one to fit me SMLE? Regards Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2012 And did you check out that photo of the 109 K98's? Scrolling down after posting the link I saw that the collector who assembled those actually has more than that. Yes thats what can happen when you venture too far into fields that are 'boundless' - lets see, 'ersatz' and 'turked' would be 2 good examples with infinite variables ... Also the multitude of different makers of the K98 bayonets can cause problems.! Thats why I stick with general issue WW1 bayonets, as the field is much more well defined. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Yes thats what can happen when you venture too far into fields that are 'boundless' - lets see, 'ersatz' and 'turked' would be 2 good examples with infinite variables ... Cheers, S>S I have been warned... And Sawdoc, pay attention also! As it is, there was I thnking I had got a bettter EB 3 to replace the one I have and it turns out that my new ersatz is an EB 9... So, best to keep the EB 3 I have rather than sell it just now... Now, back to markings - don't know if you have this so how's about those on the 1903 on Hellasbayos post 9 on GBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2012 Now, back to markings - don't know if you have this so how's about those on the 1903 on Hellasbayos post 9 on GBF Whats this about.? Am I missing a link or something here.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 February , 2012 Share Posted 5 February , 2012 Whats this about.? Am I missing a link or something here.? Indeed, it was on a GBForum link... See if I can find it again... ahh, here it is. a Turkish 1903 converted for use on a Greek 1903 http://forums.gunboa...ens-M1903-short) If you have problems getting into that let me know as I have downloaded a picture - I'm sure Hellasbayos won't mind as I am certain he would like to know the maker as well (I have his e-mail if you want/need it)! Trajan PS: Nowt at market today except a P 1888 that had been so badly mistreated it would make you cry - blade pitted and sharpened, no sign of markings, a grinder applied to the crossguard, replacement grips with the heads of the new screws ground off as well. Didn't bother to ask the price... Now, if it had a scabbard, well, a different story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2012 Thanks Trajan, yes I had already seen that one in my travels. It is quite an interesting thread and tends to highlight just how little is known about the Turkish arsenal markings. That M1913 stamp is virtually impossible to translate on its own, as it is so heavily stylised to fit in such a small space. I cracked it by looking at all the other types of equipment. BTW, the maker of that Turkish bayonet of Hellasbayos you linked was WKC if you were interested, just a slightly different version of the script to fit on the narrower M1903 blade. Regarding the P1888's, I'm getting to the stage where I buy them just for the original leather scabbards - thats when I can find them. Last show I was at I picked up a real beauty.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 6 February , 2012 Share Posted 6 February , 2012 s/s, here are some clearer markings on the uncut & cut down M1890, hope these help mate (yes, markings on prevoius bayos both end in what look like 11) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 6 February , 2012 Share Posted 6 February , 2012 Hi all Just thought I would post are a few shots of an 1890 I picked up recently. Not in amazing condition, but seems to have seen a bit of action in its time. On the basis of the information in this thread I think it is manufactured by Weyersberg and dated 1312 (1985/96). Does anyone know what the markings on the quillon (third shot) mean? Thanks, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 6 February , 2012 Share Posted 6 February , 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 6 February , 2012 Share Posted 6 February , 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2012 The markings on your crossguard should be the rack number or serial in the old Turkish/Arabic numerals. Can't quite make them out from the photo but thats what they are. I have a couple of examples that have been similarly marked in this fashion. The numerals are stamped in the same place and always fairly widely spaced. (+1 on the WKC) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 7 February , 2012 Share Posted 7 February , 2012 Thanks S>S, I thought as much. I've seen quite a few 1890s with numbers on the crossguard, however they are normally in the Western format (ie 1,2,3 etc). Presumably the fact this has the old Turkish/ arabic numberals indicates that it was stamped up pre-Attaturk (in his presedential capacity anyway!)? I'm at work right now but the numbers are visible in the flesh (the lighting wasn't brilliant for the photos). Mostly 1's with a few higher numbers at the end, and widely spaced as you say. On another point, in relation to the unshortened 1890s and 1903s shown in this thread, what is the likelihood that they were captured/ brought back post WW1? As I understand it the Turks shortened any bayonets which they held onto post war.. Are there any other obvious reasons that these bayonets would have remained in their original format? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2012 Share Posted 7 February , 2012 ... On another point, in relation to the unshortened 1890s and 1903s shown in this thread, what is the likelihood that they were captured/ brought back post WW1? As I understand it the Turks shortened any bayonets which they held onto post war.. Are there any other obvious reasons that these bayonets would have remained in their original format? To the first 'point' (ouch! ) on these possibly being bring-backs, well, yes, of course. BUT, I have bought two Turk M 1890's over here, in Turkey, that were not shortened. They have 'Turkish' numbers on the cross guard and the Sultan's mark on the pommel. By comparison, the one shortened 1890 I have has arabic (i.e., western) numbers on the cross guard, and the AS.FA mark on the pommel (with the sultan's mark partly ground out), showing this has been 'reconditioned' by the Turkish Askeri Fabrikasi in the late 1920's-1930's. So, my unshortened ones were presumably out of the inventory before the ASFA concern got going. Which leads me to think that any unshortened M 1890's now in existence were - like the surviving hookies - 'de-commissioned' or 'appropriated', and by one means or another got in private hands. In the case of the unshortened M 1890's, this would be after WWI or the Turkish War of Independence - although I do not dismiss the possibility that my examples may well have come from neighbouring Syria, Iraq or Iran at any time since 1918, when they became independent of the Ottoman Empire. The thing is, as we all know, bayonets do travel as souvenirs and collectables. E.g., I have two Swedish M 1896's that I bought in Turkey, and I know of two or three others on the market here, all of them made before 1913: none have Turkish marks, and I don't think (and cannot see why!) the Turks ever used Swedish rifles, and I am frankly at a complete loss as to explain how they got over here - except as souvenirs/collectables! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 7 February , 2012 Share Posted 7 February , 2012 Thanks Trajan - very informative. I had been wondering why the Sultan's mark was slightly ground out (although I would have thought that they may have shortened the bayonet and removed the quillon at the same time? I think I need to step back before I get sucked into the complex world of Turkish bayonet collecting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2012 Share Posted 7 February , 2012 ... I think I need to step back before I get sucked into the complex world of Turkish bayonet collecting... Indeed, indeed... As S>S has warned and Sawdoc and I are learning, it's a rather consuming subject... And once you get into the variables, well, let's put it like this, the Ersatz babies are easy-peasey! On an associated note, roll on the spring/summer so I can start getting some photo's up for you all to enjoy! Meaning I like natural light - and in any case, I still haven't worked out how to adjust the flash and macro on this new camera we have! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 8 February , 2012 Share Posted 8 February , 2012 Trajan, tell me about it mate, here are another ersatz (need your book on this 1) & turk, really should have took S/S`s advice, these turks were insane, everytime I look I find another variation Will this ever end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 February , 2012 Share Posted 8 February , 2012 I had been wondering why the Sultan's mark was slightly ground out Forgot to ask about that - are you sure it is partly ground out? Some of them are quite lightly struck to begin with. All the ground out ones I have see are very competently done, often near-invisible with just a trace of a tail. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 February , 2012 Share Posted 8 February , 2012 ... another ersatz (need your book on this 1)... Looks to me to be a EB 25 OR a fullered version of an EB 30. Carter talks about these as perhaps originally having a muzzle ring, but this was removed after damage. But I can't see any trace of grinding on yours to suggest a muzzle ring formerly existed there. Either way, the lack of a muzzle ring means that it will only fit a Gew. 98 ... Will this ever end? Errrr, probably not with Turk and Turked bayonets - how many does Otto list? As for the Erstaz, well, Carter only lists 90 in his Ersatz Bayonets first edition, so perhaps there is an end in sight for collecting these? However, I have not seen Carter Erstatz bayonets second edition, with the Ersocs as well, so don't know what number that goes up to - and in any case, how many of these does Otto list?!!! Trajan PS: PM me your address: I have a present to send you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 8 February , 2012 Share Posted 8 February , 2012 Hi Trajan - no I'm not sure that these Sultan's marks have been ground out actually. I will take another look tonight but fairly certain that they are quite visible, but the centre appears to be less well struck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 February , 2012 Share Posted 8 February , 2012 ...I'm not sure that these Sultan's marks have been ground out actually. I will take another look tonight but fairly certain that they are quite visible, but the centre appears to be less well struck. These are not the best of photo's - if you have ever tried taking photo's in a 2 bedroomed flat with one 2 and one 5 year old boy running around - and then trying to edit them to put them on GWF and send them! - well, you will understand and forgive the poor quality! Oh. you'll have to blow them up a bit (NOTE FOR MODS: GBFORUM DOES A MUCH BETTER PHOTO SYSTEM!) Anyway, first one, the top an unshortened 1890 with an ASFA shortened version - 'Arabic' numbers on crossguard and very slight traces of the tail of the tughra mark beneath the ASFA mark. Second, my two unshortened 1890's - note 'Turkish' numbers on crosguards and tughra mark is much clearer in the top one. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 February , 2012 Share Posted 9 February , 2012 Duuuhhh... The top photo doesn't show the mark properly on the ASFA marked one... Will try to get a better shot tonight... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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